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Where is left-wing conservativism?
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:25 pmby Resilient Acceleration
Christian Socialism, Islamic Socialism, or just "economically communist, socially conservative". Where are they? If I have to make a prediction in, say, early 1800s, I'd predict that some form of Christian Socialism (not that socialism was well discussed yet at that era) would be the main revolutionary ideology of the future.
Consider the vast majority of "oppressed lower-class people", whether the peasants of Tsarist Russia, slave labor in Brazil's sugar plantations, or even blue collar workers in today's developing countries. Almost universally they have two things in common:
1. They live under the control of an exploitative ruling elite. (It's important to note that the left vs right economic dicothomy is mainly a privilege of developed countries; most other countries follow the political ideology of "corruptly steal as much as possible using all possible means of power").
2. They are immensely religious.
You can kinda see why an ideology that combines the two might be incredibly popular, at least in theory. Sure, workers seizing the means of production sounds nice. But what if Jesus also supports the idea of overthrowing the bourgeois class? Christianity can be easily reinterpreted into supporting socialism, whether the decentralized anarchist version or the Soviet bureaucratic version. Indeed the Puritan cultists who first came to America practiced many tenets of the former. Other religions, given enough reinterpretation efforts, are also similar. And unlike the atheist commies who just die if they get shot during the revolution, you have God to pray into during hardships and if you are killed, you actually go to heaven. One would imagine revolutionary populist churches, demagogues, and imams appearing, declaring the capitalist elite to be the greedy enemy of the Lord that must be vanquished, trying to overthrow older religious establishments or institutions in favor of newer, more red interpretation.
Suffice to say that such ideology will, as is the case with all revolution, turn into its most extreme version before it either reforms or degenerates. This means that one would expect the emergence of terrorist or revolutionary groups that is the combination of Wahabbi-level religious fundamentalism of "throw the gays off the roof" with Maoist-level communist zealousy. Certainly, the moderates will be far more popular - imagine a populist Trump-AOC incarnate that simultaneously promises universal free healthcare and a ban on abortion. Instead, we rarely see either. Where are they?
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:25 pmby Great Algerstonia
You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 pmby The Jamesian Republic
Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!
Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:31 pmby Necroghastia
The Jamesian Republic wrote:Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!
Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.
The guiding principles of leftist economics - which essentially boil down to treating the worker as a human being worthy of dignity and respect rather than a resource to be exploited - is directly contrary to social conservatism.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:34 pmby Elves Liberation Movement
The Jamesian Republic wrote:Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!
Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.
Add politically liberal into the mix
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:39 pmby Lady Victory
>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"
Man...
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:40 pmby The Jamesian Republic
Lady Victory wrote:>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"Man...
I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:40 pmby Kubra
To make a long story short, fascism turned folks off to that sort of thing, since a lot of it ended up coalescing around that banner. What didn't usually ended up going conservative,
Prior to that, both formal and informal "left-wing conservatism" existed to a degree enough to be in places a real political force in places. Informal perhaps lasted longer, up to the 80's european communist parties (the official franchises, of course) could be counted on to be not too "progressive" on the social side, since they knew their base and what they liked. it helped that the polities they were backed by were, you know, probably a little more conservative on that end.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:43 pmby Lady Victory
The Jamesian Republic wrote:Lady Victory wrote:>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"Man...
I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.
By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:44 pmby The North Polish Union
Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:45 pmby The Jamesian Republic
The North Polish Union wrote:Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?
Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:48 pmby Alcala-Cordel
Christian socialists don't have to be "conservative", most of the ones I've met are actually pretty cool.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:49 pmby The North Polish Union
The Jamesian Republic wrote:The North Polish Union wrote:Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?
Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.
Socially conservative but economically leftist though
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:51 pmby Y3K Earth
Lady Victory wrote:The Jamesian Republic wrote:I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.
By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
Shut up shut up shut up shut up
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:56 pmby The Jamesian Republic
The North Polish Union wrote:The Jamesian Republic wrote:Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.
Socially conservative but economically leftist though
Yes but also brutal dictator. You could be socially conservative and economically left but allow democratic values in your society. For example the German Christian Democratic Union.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:00 pmby Alcala-Cordel
Y3K Earth wrote:Lady Victory wrote:By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
Shut up shut up shut up shut up
Using a twisted and selective interpretation of christianity to justify greed and exploitation is pretty fucking un-christian. Jesus was a socialist
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:11 pmby Heloin
There is no such thing as someone who is economically left wing but socially right wing. Those people are just right wing.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:19 pmby Grenartia
"Leftist" conservativism is inherently cringe. If you don't have solidarity with marginalized groups, you don't deserve solidarity for yourself.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:22 pmby Corvinna
Second star to the right and straight on til mornin’.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:23 pmby Archinstinct
Heloin wrote:There is no such thing as someone who is economically left wing but socially right wing. Those people are just right wing.
fite me, I'm economically left-wing and socially centrist!
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:27 pmby Greater Cesnica
Y3K Earth wrote:Lady Victory wrote:By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
Shut up shut up shut up shut up
looks like someone doesn't like free speech
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:29 pmby HISPIDA
Grenartia wrote:"Leftist" conservativism is inherently cringe. If you don't have solidarity with marginalized groups, you don't deserve solidarity for yourself.
Lady Victory wrote:The Jamesian Republic wrote:I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.
By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
holy based, batman
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:29 pmby Senkaku
Theocratic leaderships accountable to an unknowable almighty don’t exactly mesh well in the long run with democratic movements that center collective action and human freedom
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:30 pmby Reploid Productions
Y3K Earth wrote:Shut up shut up shut up shut up
Knock off the spam, you don't get to tell people to shut up in a discussion thread. If you don't like the discussion, then don't post pointless spam in it.
Posted:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:33 pmby Nilokeras
Resilient Acceleration wrote:Consider the vast majority of "oppressed lower-class people", whether the peasants of Tsarist Russia, slave labor in Brazil's sugar plantations, or even blue collar workers in today's developing countries. Almost universally they have two things in common:
1. They live under the control of an exploitative ruling elite. (It's important to note that the left vs right economic dicothomy is mainly a privilege of developed countries; most other countries follow the political ideology of "corruptly steal as much as possible using all possible means of power").
2. They are immensely religious.
You can kinda see why an ideology that combines the two might be incredibly popular, at least in theory.
It's worth noting that when the Russian Empire had its very first ever universal manhood suffrage election in 1917, the vast majority of peasants didn't vote conservative - they returned a slate of radical socialists in the form of the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks, because they were the ones that credibly promised action on the issues that mattered to the peasants, namely land reform and peace. This idea that 'lower class' people are just impenetrably conservative lumps that will never vote for radical causes is just a complete fiction.