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Where is left-wing conservativism?

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Draconisisia
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Founded: Oct 29, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Draconisisia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:40 pm

Just speaking for the USA, where I live, we have a two party system, so a third party that is economically left and socially conservative is unlikely to become very powerful or influential. However, Republicans are constantly harping on right-wing populist identity politics, since that's the primary way that they tend to win votes, especially with the majority of the professional class switching over to the Democrats. The Democratic party is more conservative in the classical sense, of preserving existing institutions, since the Republicans are basically revolutionary fascists who want to destroy our institutions.

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The free romanians
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Founded: Oct 15, 2021
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The free romanians » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:48 pm

Draconisisia wrote:Just speaking for the USA, where I live, we have a two party system, so a third party that is economically left and socially conservative is unlikely to become very powerful or influential. However, Republicans are constantly harping on right-wing populist identity politics, since that's the primary way that they tend to win votes, especially with the majority of the professional class switching over to the Democrats. The Democratic party is more conservative in the classical sense, of preserving existing institutions, since the Republicans are basically revolutionary fascists who want to destroy our institutions.

I wouldn't call republicans fascist

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Draconisisia
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Founded: Oct 29, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Draconisisia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:36 pm

The free romanians wrote:I wouldn't call republicans fascist


In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.

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American Legionaries
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:51 pm

Draconisisia wrote:
The free romanians wrote:I wouldn't call republicans fascist


In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.


That's a pretty fantastical shopping list my dude.

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Draconisisia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Draconisisia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:53 pm

They support every tenet of fascism.

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American Legionaries
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:54 pm

Draconisisia wrote:They support every tenet of fascism.


You've said that before, it's not more true when you repeat it.

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The free romanians
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Founded: Oct 15, 2021
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The free romanians » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:55 pm

Draconisisia wrote:
The free romanians wrote:I wouldn't call republicans fascist


In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.

Except for nationalism and no separation of church and state
That sounds also like marxist leninism

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American Legionaries
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:57 pm

The free romanians wrote:
Draconisisia wrote:
In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.

Except for nationalism and no separation of church and state
That sounds also like marxist leninism


Communist China is very nationalistic, and the state's support of official atheism is very much analogous to a state religion.

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Krasny-Volny
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Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:58 pm

The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!


Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.


Most left-wing communist states - Laos, Cuba, etc - these days are considered “culturally right-wing” by Western leftists, yet they have command economies and are socialist in every sense of the word. They tend to fiercely nationalistic, enforce conscription, have massive defense budgets, and enjoy excessive displays of military power. Their ruling parties have semi-militarized youth wings that keep hair short, dress conservative, and impart military training. They have incredibly conformist societies where homosexuality and smoking pot and other “socially deviant” behaviors are discouraged.

And they also tend to rally around charismatic authoritarians.

This is what socialism looks like to most of the world that’s not America or Western Europe.

But Western leftists look at these regimes and see no difference between them and say, Putin’s Russia. The only difference is one has a command economy and one doesn’t.
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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:00 pm

Draconisisia wrote:
The free romanians wrote:I wouldn't call republicans fascist


In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.


Aside from the the part about corporate power, this reads like a list of characteristics of any number of current socialist regimes (or regimes with socialist ruling parties). This is Laos, Cuba, Venezuela, and Vietnam in a nutshell.
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Prima Scriptura
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Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:06 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.


Most left-wing communist states - Laos, Cuba, etc - these days are considered “culturally right-wing” by Western leftists, yet they have command economies and are socialist in every sense of the word. They tend to fiercely nationalistic, enforce conscription, have massive defense budgets, and enjoy excessive displays of military power. Their ruling parties have semi-militarized youth wings that keep hair short, dress conservative, and impart military training. They have incredibly conformist societies where homosexuality and smoking pot and other “socially deviant” behaviors are discouraged.

And they also tend to rally around charismatic authoritarians.

This is what socialism looks like to most of the world that’s not America or Western Europe.

But Western leftists look at these regimes and see no difference between them and say, Putin’s Russia. The only difference is one has a command economy and one doesn’t.



I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.
I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Sola gratia. Sola fide. Soli Deo gloria. Solus Christus
1 Chronicles 16:34
Psalms 147:3
Isaiah 53:5
Luke 9:23
Romans 3:22-24
2 Corinthians 5:17

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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:14 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Most left-wing communist states - Laos, Cuba, etc - these days are considered “culturally right-wing” by Western leftists, yet they have command economies and are socialist in every sense of the word. They tend to fiercely nationalistic, enforce conscription, have massive defense budgets, and enjoy excessive displays of military power. Their ruling parties have semi-militarized youth wings that keep hair short, dress conservative, and impart military training. They have incredibly conformist societies where homosexuality and smoking pot and other “socially deviant” behaviors are discouraged.

And they also tend to rally around charismatic authoritarians.

This is what socialism looks like to most of the world that’s not America or Western Europe.

But Western leftists look at these regimes and see no difference between them and say, Putin’s Russia. The only difference is one has a command economy and one doesn’t.



I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.


“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.
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Uiiop
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Uiiop » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:15 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:

I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.


“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.
So again: "Rebranded lib copium"
Last edited by Uiiop on Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#NSTransparency

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:20 pm

Draconisisia wrote:They support every tenet of fascism.


i fucking wish
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Bear Stearns
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Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:21 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:

I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.


“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.


i have more respect for tankies than liberals and normie leftists. They're at least honest.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
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Prima Scriptura
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Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:21 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:

I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.


“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.


I am aware what a “tankie” is. I am stating that I see libertarian communists/socialists defending Cuba as some sort socially liberal/progressive paradise. They dismiss the human rights abuses as “capitalist propaganda”
I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
Sola gratia. Sola fide. Soli Deo gloria. Solus Christus
1 Chronicles 16:34
Psalms 147:3
Isaiah 53:5
Luke 9:23
Romans 3:22-24
2 Corinthians 5:17

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Nationalist Northumbria
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Founded: Apr 27, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:25 pm

Draconisisia wrote:
The free romanians wrote:I wouldn't call republicans fascist


In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.

Nationalism: Obama made his 2012 Democratic nomination acceptance speech to the backdrop of a giant American flag, while his supporters waved American flags in the audience. Obama's foreign policy prioritised (his interpretation of) American interests above all else, even America's closest allies, including the illegal intrusion into Pakistan without the Pakistani government's consent and against international law to execute Osama bin Laden without trial.

Disdain for human rights: Can "we tortured some folks" be described as anything other than disdainful? That was Obama's description of horrific atrocities perpetrated against suspected terrorists, including those wrongfully suspected. While carefully maintaining a not-supporting-it---but stance, he justified U.S. intelligence agencies torturing people on the grounds that there was "enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams", and described those involved in torture as "real patriots."

Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause: "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" - Obama's hatred for rural whites who had dared to commit the crime of voting for Hillary Clinton was so strong that, over the next eight years, he managed to completely drive them away from the party. They were then painted as being racist for quite reasonably not supporting a man who had revealed his hatred of them.

Militarism: Obama, going against a vote in the House of Representatives, joined the European intervention in Libya to bring down Gaddafi. This led to slave markets emerging in the chaos following the dictator's brutal, extrajudicial murder by NATO-backed radical Islamist insurgents. Despite this, despite in contrast Libya under Gaddafi having seen astounding improvements in living standards compared to its neighbours, Obama still described it as "the right thing to do."

Sexism: Obama used sexist dogwhistles and appealed to sexist sentiments in his 2008 primary battle with Hillary Clinton.

I can do more if you want.
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which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Middlegarden
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Postby Middlegarden » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:29 pm

I would say that makes you somethink like a third positionist I guess, those are generally placed in the middle of right and left from what I've seen, eg NazBols, Fascists, Syndicalists, maybe one could even include the Constitutional Monarchy.

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:29 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Draconisisia wrote:
In what way are Republicans not fascist? They advocate for all of the characteristics of fascism: nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause, militarism, sexism, controlled mass media, obsession with national security, religion and government are intertwined, corporate power is protected, labor power is suppressed, disdain for intellectuals and the arts, obsession with crime and punishment, rampant cronyism and corruption, and fraudulent elections.

Nationalism: Obama made his 2012 Democratic nomination acceptance speech to the backdrop of a giant American flag, while his supporters waved American flags in the audience. Obama's foreign policy prioritised (his interpretation of) American interests above all else, even America's closest allies, including the illegal intrusion into Pakistan without the Pakistani government's consent and against international law to execute Osama bin Laden without trial.

Disdain for human rights: Can "we tortured some folks" be described as anything other than disdainful? That was Obama's description of horrific atrocities perpetrated against suspected terrorists, including those wrongfully suspected. While carefully maintaining a not-supporting-it---but stance, he justified U.S. intelligence agencies torturing people on the grounds that there was "enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams", and described those involved in torture as "real patriots."

Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause: "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" - Obama's hatred for rural whites who had dared to commit the crime of voting for Hillary Clinton was so strong that, over the next eight years, he managed to completely drive them away from the party. They were then painted as being racist for quite reasonably not supporting a man who had revealed his hatred of them.

Militarism: Obama, going against a vote in the House of Representatives, joined the European intervention in Libya to bring down Gaddafi. This led to slave markets emerging in the chaos following the dictator's brutal, extrajudicial murder by NATO-backed radical Islamist insurgents. Despite this, despite in contrast Libya under Gaddafi having seen astounding improvements in living standards compared to its neighbours, Obama still described it as "the right thing to do."

Sexism: Obama used sexist dogwhistles and appealed to sexist sentiments in his 2008 primary battle with Hillary Clinton.

I can do more if you want.


based

shit bush went out of his way to say islam was not the enemy. he was a bigger cuck than obama.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Founded: Apr 27, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:33 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Nationalism: Obama made his 2012 Democratic nomination acceptance speech to the backdrop of a giant American flag, while his supporters waved American flags in the audience. Obama's foreign policy prioritised (his interpretation of) American interests above all else, even America's closest allies, including the illegal intrusion into Pakistan without the Pakistani government's consent and against international law to execute Osama bin Laden without trial.

Disdain for human rights: Can "we tortured some folks" be described as anything other than disdainful? That was Obama's description of horrific atrocities perpetrated against suspected terrorists, including those wrongfully suspected. While carefully maintaining a not-supporting-it---but stance, he justified U.S. intelligence agencies torturing people on the grounds that there was "enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams", and described those involved in torture as "real patriots."

Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause: "they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" - Obama's hatred for rural whites who had dared to commit the crime of voting for Hillary Clinton was so strong that, over the next eight years, he managed to completely drive them away from the party. They were then painted as being racist for quite reasonably not supporting a man who had revealed his hatred of them.

Militarism: Obama, going against a vote in the House of Representatives, joined the European intervention in Libya to bring down Gaddafi. This led to slave markets emerging in the chaos following the dictator's brutal, extrajudicial murder by NATO-backed radical Islamist insurgents. Despite this, despite in contrast Libya under Gaddafi having seen astounding improvements in living standards compared to its neighbours, Obama still described it as "the right thing to do."

Sexism: Obama used sexist dogwhistles and appealed to sexist sentiments in his 2008 primary battle with Hillary Clinton.

I can do more if you want.


based

shit bush went out of his way to say islam was not the enemy. he was a bigger cuck than obama.

Interestingly, Obama in 2008 and 2012 won many white Midwestern voters who eight/four years later would enthusiastically embrace Trump.
Republic of Northumbria
Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Draconisisia
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Founded: Oct 29, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Draconisisia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:34 pm

I didn't say that Democrats aren't also fascists, they are just less fascist than Republicans. In fact I would say that Democrats are conservatives.

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Diarcesia
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:38 pm

By definition, conservatism is the ideology of keeping the status quo. In this regard, if a left-wing government's policies is geared towards maintaining existing policies, it becomes conservative. An example would be the Soviets crushing counterrevolutionary activity.

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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:38 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
based

shit bush went out of his way to say islam was not the enemy. he was a bigger cuck than obama.

Interestingly, Obama in 2008 and 2012 won many white Midwestern voters who eight/four years later would enthusiastically embrace Trump.


Obama 2008 was a populist who wanted to go after the banks and get us out of Iraq.

He revealed his true colors in his second term.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Bear Stearns
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Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:39 pm

Diarcesia wrote:By definition, conservatism is the ideology of keeping the status quo. In this regard, if a left-wing government's policies is geared towards maintaining existing policies, it becomes conservative. An example would be the Soviets crushing counterrevolutionary activity.


American leftists also shill for the status quo because they think anything that's anti-establishment is fascist.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
Vince Vaughn

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Dreria
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Founded: Sep 16, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:41 pm

Diarcesia wrote:By definition, conservatism is the ideology of keeping the status quo. In this regard, if a left-wing government's policies is geared towards maintaining existing policies, it becomes conservative. An example would be the Soviets crushing counterrevolutionary activity.

"the bolsheviks were conservative because they didn't give up power"
catboy traditionalism

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