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Where is left-wing conservativism?

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Diarcesia
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:41 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:By definition, conservatism is the ideology of keeping the status quo. In this regard, if a left-wing government's policies is geared towards maintaining existing policies, it becomes conservative. An example would be the Soviets crushing counterrevolutionary activity.


American leftists also shill for the status quo because they think anything that's anti-establishment is fascist.

Given American politics is already, to over-simplify things, quite right-wing. American "leftists" are also conservative lol.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:43 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
American leftists also shill for the status quo because they think anything that's anti-establishment is fascist.

Given American politics is already, to over-simplify things, quite right-wing. American "leftists" are also conservative lol.


This statement means nothing and has added zero value to this conversation.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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Krasny-Volny
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Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:44 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.


I am aware what a “tankie” is. I am stating that I see libertarian communists/socialists defending Cuba as some sort socially liberal/progressive paradise. They dismiss the human rights abuses as “capitalist propaganda”


Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.
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American Legionaries
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby American Legionaries » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:45 pm

Draconisisia wrote:I didn't say that Democrats aren't also fascists, they are just less fascist than Republicans. In fact I would say that Democrats are conservatives.


How does someone go about being "less fascist"?

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Dreria
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Founded: Sep 16, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:46 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
I am aware what a “tankie” is. I am stating that I see libertarian communists/socialists defending Cuba as some sort socially liberal/progressive paradise. They dismiss the human rights abuses as “capitalist propaganda”


Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.

the LAPD killed more people this week than Cuba has in a decade. and the worst human rights abuses in Cuba are in a US military base.
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Draconisisia
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Postby Draconisisia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:46 pm

The USA has the worst human rights record of any country in the world. We have the highest percentage of our population in prison, we invade other countries, overthrow their governments, bomb and torture their people. We're the only country to ever use nuclear weapons.

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Krasny-Volny
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Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:47 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
American leftists also shill for the status quo because they think anything that's anti-establishment is fascist.

Given American politics is already, to over-simplify things, quite right-wing. American "leftists" are also conservative lol.


Compared to who?

We can go even further if you want; many people assert that Russian “leftists” are even more culturally conservative than American ones.

What yardstick are you using to perpetuate this No True Scotsman fallacy?
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Crylante
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Crylante » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:47 pm

Tankies are fascists that like the colour red while they're on the agenda.
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:48 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
I am aware what a “tankie” is. I am stating that I see libertarian communists/socialists defending Cuba as some sort socially liberal/progressive paradise. They dismiss the human rights abuses as “capitalist propaganda”


Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.

Years ago, when I was younger, my uncle hired a Cuban exile. My grandparents later told me that he had fled Cuba to escape communist dictatorship, where people could not buy what they wanted to but instead had to go to a warehouse and have what the state thought they needed (and no more - just necessities) given to them. Something like that, I was like 8, 9, 10 when I heard it.

He later tried to steal from my uncle's business.
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Dreria
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:48 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:

I see leftists on NSG and elsewhere defend Cuba as some sort of cultural liberal paradise very often. They make it seem it’s like San Francisco in the Caribbean.


“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.

if you're a socialist and you hate every socialist country then you're not a socialist.
white boys love to sit on an improvised couch

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:50 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.

Years ago, when I was younger, my uncle hired a Cuban exile. My grandparents later told me that he had fled Cuba to escape communist dictatorship, where people could not buy what they wanted to but instead had to go to a warehouse and have what the state thought they needed (and no more - just necessities) given to them. Something like that, I was like 8, 9, 10 when I heard it.

He later tried to steal from my uncle's business.


The exiles brought typical tropical attitudes of honest government and property rights to South Florida.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
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Diarcesia
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Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:53 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:Given American politics is already, to over-simplify things, quite right-wing. American "leftists" are also conservative lol.


Compared to who?

We can go even further if you want; many people assert that Russian “leftists” are even more culturally conservative than American ones.

What yardstick are you using to perpetuate this No True Scotsman fallacy?

Compared to full-on tankies, communists, and Marxists (inb4 "Democrats are Marxists", they are not).

To what extent am I invoking No True Scotsman?

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Dreria
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Founded: Sep 16, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:53 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.

Years ago, when I was younger, my uncle hired a Cuban exile. My grandparents later told me that he had fled Cuba to escape communist dictatorship, where people could not buy what they wanted to but instead had to go to a warehouse and have what the state thought they needed (and no more - just necessities) given to them. Something like that, I was like 8, 9, 10 when I heard it.

He later tried to steal from my uncle's business.

"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.
white boys love to sit on an improvised couch

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
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Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:53 pm

Dreria wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Would like to see some of these folks come forward and post on this thread. I’ve only met one person who was an ardent defender of Cuba’s human rights record on this forum, and I’d consider him a tankie in the sense that this was the type of authoritarian socialism he actively approved of.

the LAPD killed more people this week than Cuba has in a decade. and the worst human rights abuses in Cuba are in a US military base.


Do you think all allegations of human rights abuses in Cuba are Western propaganda?
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:54 pm

Dreria wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Years ago, when I was younger, my uncle hired a Cuban exile. My grandparents later told me that he had fled Cuba to escape communist dictatorship, where people could not buy what they wanted to but instead had to go to a warehouse and have what the state thought they needed (and no more - just necessities) given to them. Something like that, I was like 8, 9, 10 when I heard it.

He later tried to steal from my uncle's business.

"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.

Well, this was in North East England.
Republic of Northumbria
Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Dreria
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Founded: Sep 16, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:55 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Dreria wrote:the LAPD killed more people this week than Cuba has in a decade. and the worst human rights abuses in Cuba are in a US military base.


Do you think all allegations of human rights abuses in Cuba are Western propaganda?

no country has ever done zero bad things to anyone, so no.
white boys love to sit on an improvised couch

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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:55 pm

Dreria wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Years ago, when I was younger, my uncle hired a Cuban exile. My grandparents later told me that he had fled Cuba to escape communist dictatorship, where people could not buy what they wanted to but instead had to go to a warehouse and have what the state thought they needed (and no more - just necessities) given to them. Something like that, I was like 8, 9, 10 when I heard it.

He later tried to steal from my uncle's business.

"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.


The failures of Latin America have little to do with their economic systems. Argentina has proven it can be a dump whether it be capitalist or socialist, and Mexico has shown that it equally sucks under neoliberalism and socialism.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
Vince Vaughn

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 3154
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:56 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
Compared to who?

We can go even further if you want; many people assert that Russian “leftists” are even more culturally conservative than American ones.

What yardstick are you using to perpetuate this No True Scotsman fallacy?

Compared to full-on tankies, communists, and Marxists (inb4 "Democrats are Marxists", they are not).

To what extent am I invoking No True Scotsman?


To the extant that you’re claiming millions of self-identifying American leftists are actually closet conservatives.
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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:57 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:Given American politics is already, to over-simplify things, quite right-wing. American "leftists" are also conservative lol.


Compared to who?

We can go even further if you want; many people assert that Russian “leftists” are even more culturally conservative than American ones.

What yardstick are you using to perpetuate this No True Scotsman fallacy?


American leftists believe that Western Europe constitutes the rest of the world.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
Vince Vaughn

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Dreria
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Founded: Sep 16, 2021
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Dreria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:57 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Dreria wrote:"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.


The failures of Latin America have little to do with their economic systems. Argentina has proven it can be a dump whether it be capitalist or socialist, and Mexico has shown that it equally sucks under neoliberalism and socialism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuRC3HEJ71M
white boys love to sit on an improvised couch

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Nationalist Northumbria
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Founded: Apr 27, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:57 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Dreria wrote:"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.


The failures of Latin America have little to do with their economic systems. Argentina has proven it can be a dump whether it be capitalist or socialist, and Mexico has shown that it equally sucks under neoliberalism and socialism.

We should probably look for a factor connecting all these countries, including Brazil.
Republic of Northumbria
Bede kinnie — Catgirl appreciator

"The amazing thing is that Tony Blair being shot in the head after running a barricade for inexplicable reasons is one of the most plausible episodes in this RP,
which comes across as House of Cards by the writers of Mr. Bean."

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 3154
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:58 pm

Dreria wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
“Tankies”, in Western communist parlance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

There is a vocal minority of Western communists that does approve of the old guard Soviet-style regimes. The fact that these regimes are often credited with standing up to US imperialism and are in impoverished, non-white countries gives them additional moral high ground to these folks.

This is a definite split in the modern socialist movements in Western countries hardly anybody outside those movements talks about.

if you're a socialist and you hate every socialist country then you're not a socialist.


Wholeheartedly agree.
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Bear Stearns
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Posts: 11348
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Capitalizt

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:58 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
The failures of Latin America have little to do with their economic systems. Argentina has proven it can be a dump whether it be capitalist or socialist, and Mexico has shown that it equally sucks under neoliberalism and socialism.

We should probably look for a factor connecting all these countries, including Brazil.


I think I know what it is :^)
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
Vince Vaughn

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Diarcesia
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Posts: 5570
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:00 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:Compared to full-on tankies, communists, and Marxists (inb4 "Democrats are Marxists", they are not).

To what extent am I invoking No True Scotsman?


To the extant that you’re claiming millions of self-identifying American leftists are actually closet conservatives.

Going by this dictionary assumption...

Diarcesia wrote:By definition, conservatism is the ideology of keeping the status quo.


...American leftists who seek changes in the US's policy are not conservatives.

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Crylante
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Posts: 937
Founded: Dec 06, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Crylante » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:01 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Dreria wrote:"If socialism is so good why do cubans want to come to the USA??? checkmate"

yeah because no one from guatemala and honduras and el salvadore ever tries to enter the country. they must have the same amount of dollars as the US, since they are capitalist.


The failures of Latin America have little to do with their economic systems. Argentina has proven it can be a dump whether it be capitalist or socialist, and Mexico has shown that it equally sucks under neoliberalism and socialism.

Neither of these countries has, to my knowledge, been socialist.

I suppose you could call the current Mexican president a socialist with a stretch and I'll admit I don't know much about the intricacies of his administration but I believe he's actually quite popular?

I believe both countries are quite a bit more developed than Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador? I think you'd make your point better if you compared the shittiness of the Sandinista govt in Nicaragua to the govts of those three countries.
Crylantian Federation
Social democratic confederation of Latin-Danes, Danes and Finns.
IIWiki
Democratic socialist, green and British federalist
Economic Left/Right: -6.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.18

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