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Where is left-wing conservativism?

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Resilient Acceleration
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Where is left-wing conservativism?

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:25 pm

Christian Socialism, Islamic Socialism, or just "economically communist, socially conservative". Where are they? If I have to make a prediction in, say, early 1800s, I'd predict that some form of Christian Socialism (not that socialism was well discussed yet at that era) would be the main revolutionary ideology of the future.

Consider the vast majority of "oppressed lower-class people", whether the peasants of Tsarist Russia, slave labor in Brazil's sugar plantations, or even blue collar workers in today's developing countries. Almost universally they have two things in common:

1. They live under the control of an exploitative ruling elite. (It's important to note that the left vs right economic dicothomy is mainly a privilege of developed countries; most other countries follow the political ideology of "corruptly steal as much as possible using all possible means of power").
2. They are immensely religious.

You can kinda see why an ideology that combines the two might be incredibly popular, at least in theory. Sure, workers seizing the means of production sounds nice. But what if Jesus also supports the idea of overthrowing the bourgeois class? Christianity can be easily reinterpreted into supporting socialism, whether the decentralized anarchist version or the Soviet bureaucratic version. Indeed the Puritan cultists who first came to America practiced many tenets of the former. Other religions, given enough reinterpretation efforts, are also similar. And unlike the atheist commies who just die if they get shot during the revolution, you have God to pray into during hardships and if you are killed, you actually go to heaven. One would imagine revolutionary populist churches, demagogues, and imams appearing, declaring the capitalist elite to be the greedy enemy of the Lord that must be vanquished, trying to overthrow older religious establishments or institutions in favor of newer, more red interpretation.

Suffice to say that such ideology will, as is the case with all revolution, turn into its most extreme version before it either reforms or degenerates. This means that one would expect the emergence of terrorist or revolutionary groups that is the combination of Wahabbi-level religious fundamentalism of "throw the gays off the roof" with Maoist-level communist zealousy. Certainly, the moderates will be far more popular - imagine a populist Trump-AOC incarnate that simultaneously promises universal free healthcare and a ban on abortion. Instead, we rarely see either. Where are they?

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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:25 pm

You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!


Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.

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Postby Necroghastia » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:31 pm

The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!


Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.

The guiding principles of leftist economics - which essentially boil down to treating the worker as a human being worthy of dignity and respect rather than a resource to be exploited - is directly contrary to social conservatism.
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Elves Liberation Movement
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Postby Elves Liberation Movement » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:34 pm

The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:You dare to associate conservatism with leftism!!!!?????!?!?!?!!


Yes. I think it’s possible to be culturally conservative with leftist economics.

Add politically liberal into the mix
Last edited by Elves Liberation Movement on Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:39 pm

>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"


Man...
Last edited by Lady Victory on Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:40 pm

Lady Victory wrote:>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"


Man...


I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.

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Postby Kubra » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:40 pm

To make a long story short, fascism turned folks off to that sort of thing, since a lot of it ended up coalescing around that banner. What didn't usually ended up going conservative,
Prior to that, both formal and informal "left-wing conservatism" existed to a degree enough to be in places a real political force in places. Informal perhaps lasted longer, up to the 80's european communist parties (the official franchises, of course) could be counted on to be not too "progressive" on the social side, since they knew their base and what they liked. it helped that the polities they were backed by were, you know, probably a little more conservative on that end.
Last edited by Kubra on Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lady Victory
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Postby Lady Victory » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:43 pm

The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:>Christian Socialism
>"conservative"


Man...


I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.


By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.
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The North Polish Union
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Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:44 pm

Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:45 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?


Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.

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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:48 pm

Christian socialists don't have to be "conservative", most of the ones I've met are actually pretty cool.
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The North Polish Union
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Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:49 pm

The Jamesian Republic wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:Ever heard of Muammar "women's only education should be learning to make bombs and Tiananmen Square was good because it squashed counterrevolutionaries" Qaddafi?


Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.

Socially conservative but economically leftist though
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The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

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Postby Y3K Earth » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:51 pm

Lady Victory wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:
I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.


By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.


Shut up shut up shut up shut up
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The Jamesian Republic
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Postby The Jamesian Republic » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:56 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:
Yes. I don’t like leaders like that.

Socially conservative but economically leftist though


Yes but also brutal dictator. You could be socially conservative and economically left but allow democratic values in your society. For example the German Christian Democratic Union.

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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:00 pm

Y3K Earth wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.


Shut up shut up shut up shut up

Using a twisted and selective interpretation of christianity to justify greed and exploitation is pretty fucking un-christian. Jesus was a socialist
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Postby Heloin » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:11 pm

There is no such thing as someone who is economically left wing but socially right wing. Those people are just right wing.
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Postby Grenartia » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:19 pm

"Leftist" conservativism is inherently cringe. If you don't have solidarity with marginalized groups, you don't deserve solidarity for yourself.
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Postby Corvinna » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:22 pm

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Postby Archinstinct » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:23 pm

Heloin wrote:There is no such thing as someone who is economically left wing but socially right wing. Those people are just right wing.


fite me, I'm economically left-wing and socially centrist! :lol:
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:27 pm

Y3K Earth wrote:
Lady Victory wrote:
By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.


Shut up shut up shut up shut up

looks like someone doesn't like free speech

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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:29 pm

Grenartia wrote:"Leftist" conservativism is inherently cringe. If you don't have solidarity with marginalized groups, you don't deserve solidarity for yourself.

Lady Victory wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:
I mean it’s combining Christianity with the workers owning the means of production.


By all metrics Christianity isn't even logically compatible with Conservative politics. The Christian Right has truly ruined the image of the religion.


holy based, batman
Last edited by Hispida on Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Senkaku » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:29 pm

Theocratic leaderships accountable to an unknowable almighty don’t exactly mesh well in the long run with democratic movements that center collective action and human freedom
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Postby Reploid Productions » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:30 pm

Y3K Earth wrote:Shut up shut up shut up shut up

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Nilokeras
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:33 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:Consider the vast majority of "oppressed lower-class people", whether the peasants of Tsarist Russia, slave labor in Brazil's sugar plantations, or even blue collar workers in today's developing countries. Almost universally they have two things in common:

1. They live under the control of an exploitative ruling elite. (It's important to note that the left vs right economic dicothomy is mainly a privilege of developed countries; most other countries follow the political ideology of "corruptly steal as much as possible using all possible means of power").
2. They are immensely religious.

You can kinda see why an ideology that combines the two might be incredibly popular, at least in theory.


It's worth noting that when the Russian Empire had its very first ever universal manhood suffrage election in 1917, the vast majority of peasants didn't vote conservative - they returned a slate of radical socialists in the form of the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks, because they were the ones that credibly promised action on the issues that mattered to the peasants, namely land reform and peace. This idea that 'lower class' people are just impenetrably conservative lumps that will never vote for radical causes is just a complete fiction.

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