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The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What do?

NATO should decline these demands and begin preparing for WW3 to break out.
683
38%
NATO should decline these demands and hope it's fine and/or limited to the invasion of Ukraine.
360
20%
NATO should negotiate.
502
28%
NATO should accept these demands.
267
15%
 
Total votes : 1812

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American Pere Housh
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Postby American Pere Housh » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:31 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Orostan wrote:NATO member states should not provoke a war with Russia or try and encircle Russia the way they are doing. That is what I am arguing.


1) It has a fundamentally offensive character and has only ever done offensive interventions.
2) Hitler always intended to invade the USSR and he claimed Soviet troops were massing on the border and that he had to attack to defend Germany. The non-aggression pact was always only a delay to this.
3) Yes it is, what do you think this talk over Ukraine joining NATO is? Supporting "protests" (read: CIA color revolutions) in Warsaw Pact countries is an OFFENSIVE move.


NATO states defending their borders and sovereignty isn’t “escalating war” with Russia. Russia does not have a right to those states. Russia has been the one it has been escalating by having hundreds of thousands of troops on the Ukrainian border. So, NATO States that were former members of the Warsaw Pact have every right to defend themselves from Russian aggression.

Don't be surprised if Eastern Europe view this as a threat to their sovereignty and helps Ukraine if the Russians do invade.
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Nationalist Northumbria
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Postby Nationalist Northumbria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:40 pm

Hispida wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Russia was able to win a war against the West for most of the Cold War.

lmao no
the ussr couldn't even sustain a protracted war against afghanistan, let alone the west
it would collapse after a few years on its own

Russia is still a great power

not really
they can't even control their own sphere of influence, even their proto-satellites like belarus

and it is not thinking about "fighting NATO" in the sense of fighting NATO all at once, but rather maybe at a push, the same way the U.S. considers what a war with China would look like,

a war with china would be entirely digitized; something russia isn't yet prepared for

BTFOing the Baltic states and the NATO forces unlucky enough to be there to take back Ida-Virumaa.

while i'll agree that russia can probably push into the baltics and a bit into poland, that is literally as far as they would go. they will never win a conventional war against NATO

And why should the West go to war so that Estonia can continue occupying Narva? Without the words 'Sudetenland' or 'Munich'.

estonia isnt occupying shit lmao

The USSR only collapsed because Gorbachev blew its brains out all over the wall, and in 99 out of 100 timelines the so-called Chicken Kiev speech would've gone down in history as an unheeded, doomed plea. A question, by the way: what does the result of the protracted war in Afghanistan (2001-2021) mean for the West in this context?

Russia "can't even control their own sphere of influence"? Neither can the US, doesn't mean the US isn't a superpower. The example of the US and war with China is about planning for hypotheticals regardless of their immediate likelihood, as militaries do, so whether or not a war would be digitised is beside the point. The US isn't planning to begin a war with China next week, neither is Russia with Estonia. It's all hypothetical.

Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

And do you really think the Russians in Estonia wouldn't choose to join Russia if given the choice?
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:42 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Hispida wrote:lmao no
the ussr couldn't even sustain a protracted war against afghanistan, let alone the west
it would collapse after a few years on its own


not really
they can't even control their own sphere of influence, even their proto-satellites like belarus


a war with china would be entirely digitized; something russia isn't yet prepared for


while i'll agree that russia can probably push into the baltics and a bit into poland, that is literally as far as they would go. they will never win a conventional war against NATO


estonia isnt occupying shit lmao

The USSR only collapsed because Gorbachev blew its brains out all over the wall, and in 99 out of 100 timelines the so-called Chicken Kiev speech would've gone down in history as an unheeded, doomed plea. A question, by the way: what does the result of the protracted war in Afghanistan (2001-2021) mean for the West in this context?

Russia "can't even control their own sphere of influence"? Neither can the US, doesn't mean the US isn't a superpower. The example of the US and war with China is about planning for hypotheticals regardless of their immediate likelihood, as militaries do, so whether or not a war would be digitised is beside the point. The US isn't planning to begin a war with China next week, neither is Russia with Estonia. It's all hypothetical.

Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

And do you really think the Russians in Estonia wouldn't choose to join Russia if given the choice?


Russians in Estonia have every right to move to Russia if they want to be part of Russia. You’re basically saying that Russia has every right to invade NATO states and reform the Warsaw pac. My only question is why do you think that they have some divine right to these countries?
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:43 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

Do you think NATO would immediately surrender once Russia occupied the Baltic countries ersumthing?
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:49 pm

Picairn wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

Do you think NATO would immediately surrender once Russia occupied the Baltic countries ersumthing?


People actually think that Russia stands a chance against NATO. :roll:
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American Pere Housh
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Postby American Pere Housh » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:49 pm

Russia needs to remember that NATO is already on their border with Norway, the Baltic States and Poland so if Ukraine wishes to join then Russia has no right to stop them. Russia not wanting NATO on its borders means that the Russians fear NATO.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:49 pm

Nationalist Northumbria wrote:
Hispida wrote:lmao no
the ussr couldn't even sustain a protracted war against afghanistan, let alone the west
it would collapse after a few years on its own


not really
they can't even control their own sphere of influence, even their proto-satellites like belarus


a war with china would be entirely digitized; something russia isn't yet prepared for


while i'll agree that russia can probably push into the baltics and a bit into poland, that is literally as far as they would go. they will never win a conventional war against NATO


estonia isnt occupying shit lmao

The USSR only collapsed because Gorbachev blew its brains out all over the wall

mmmmm no
the ussr collapsed because the gkchp was dumb enough to ruin all chances of its survival, even in a limited form

A question, by the way: what does the result of the protracted war in Afghanistan (2001-2021) mean for the West in this context?

different scenario: this wasn't a failure of the US to defeat the taliban (which they did) but a failure of the US to establish peace
the USSR utterly failed to defeat enemy forces in afghanistan

Russia "can't even control their own sphere of influence"? Neither can the US, doesn't mean the US isn't a superpower.

the us can easily control its sphere of influence
see: japan
see: south korea
see: taiwan
see: all of central and south america

The example of the US and war with China is about planning for hypotheticals regardless of their immediate likelihood, as militaries do, so whether or not a war would be digitised is beside the point. The US isn't planning to begin a war with China next week, neither is Russia with Estonia. It's all hypothetical.

fair tbh

Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

hahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hold on
*gasp*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

what a story, mark

And do you really think the Russians in Estonia wouldn't choose to join Russia if given the choice?

where did you even get this from? i never talked about russians in estonia
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:02 pm

...

Does anyone know how Ukraine and Sweden/Finland feels about NATO membership?
Last edited by New haven america on Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:03 pm

Fuck yeah lets do it, WW3 right now. Why wait for the climate to kill us all when we can go out with a bang.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:04 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.


You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.

So do you get paid by the letter or by volume?
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Kingdom of Voidstania
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Postby Kingdom of Voidstania » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:07 pm

I don't think that Putin will go to war with all of NATO, but they're invading Ukraine at some point. Really a shame, we need to end the trilogy
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:08 pm

American Pere Housh wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
NATO states defending their borders and sovereignty isn’t “escalating war” with Russia. Russia does not have a right to those states. Russia has been the one it has been escalating by having hundreds of thousands of troops on the Ukrainian border. So, NATO States that were former members of the Warsaw Pact have every right to defend themselves from Russian aggression.

Don't be surprised if Eastern Europe view this as a threat to their sovereignty and helps Ukraine if the Russians do invade.

~1/2 of Eastern Europe is in NATO.
Last edited by New haven america on Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Johill
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Postby Johill » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:13 pm

It would be stupid to disagree to their demands. No need to waste resources on a country that can be destroyed by America alone. Western countries just need to increase their military prowess and start favourable trade deals with the PRC, India and Russia.
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:15 pm

Johill wrote:It would be stupid to disagree to their demands. No need to waste resources on a country that can be destroyed by America alone. Western countries just need to increase their military prowess and start favourable trade deals with the PRC, India and Russia.

It would be stupid to agree to it. Russia is trying to push what they know will be opposed, and they clearly want war.

That said, war would most likely end unfruitful for them.
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Cosavia
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Postby Cosavia » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:15 pm

Russia vs. Ukraine? Let's see... on one hand we have an illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government, and on the other hand, we have a puppet of another illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government. Why should I care about this conflict at all?

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:32 pm

New haven america wrote:...

Does anyone know how Ukraine and Sweden/Finland feels about NATO membership?

sweden is close to nato but probably won't join it; finlandization and all that
see above for finland

and ukraine really wants to get into nato to stop russia but nato isn't dumb enough to be so openly hostile towards russia
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Postby Rusozak » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:50 pm

Cosavia wrote:Russia vs. Ukraine? Let's see... on one hand we have an illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government, and on the other hand, we have a puppet of another illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government. Why should I care about this conflict at all?


I bet a lot of people thought the same about Austria-Hungary and Serbia in 1914. This can very easily blow up into a far larger and more destructive conflict.
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Cosavia
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Postby Cosavia » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:06 pm

Rusozak wrote:
Cosavia wrote:Russia vs. Ukraine? Let's see... on one hand we have an illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government, and on the other hand, we have a puppet of another illiberal imperialist state with a right-wing government. Why should I care about this conflict at all?


I bet a lot of people thought the same about Austria-Hungary and Serbia in 1914. This can very easily blow up into a far larger and more destructive conflict.


Sure, this could easily escalate into a third world war, that's not my point. My point is that there is no "good" or "bad" side here, and the idea of taking sides is silly. If my country goes to war I will not fight for it.

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:08 pm

About as meaningful as Greta demanding that the world stop using fossil fuels.
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Kursibar
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Postby Kursibar » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:17 pm

What will happen: It'll end with Russia taking over eastern Ukraine and the NATO countries issuing a 'strong condemnation.'

As interesting as Eurowar would be, nothing all that interesting will happen. Which is a good thing for everyone except Ukrainians.
Last edited by Kursibar on Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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American Pere Housh
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Postby American Pere Housh » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:28 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:About as meaningful as Greta demanding that the world stop using fossil fuels.

HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!
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American Pere Housh
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Postby American Pere Housh » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:33 pm

Johill wrote:It would be stupid to disagree to their demands. No need to waste resources on a country that can be destroyed by America alone. Western countries just need to increase their military prowess and start favourable trade deals with the PRC, India and Russia.

What you seem to forget is that Eastern Europe still remembers what it is like to be under Russian control and they have no wish to go back to that plus there is no mechanism for kicking a member state under the North Atlantic Treaty.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:47 pm

Picairn wrote:
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:Russia pushing into the Baltics, let alone Poland, is winning a conventional war against NATO. After that NATO would be done.

Do you think NATO would immediately surrender once Russia occupied the Baltic countries ersumthing?

If anything such action would do more to justify NATO's existence than anything else in the past 30 years.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:49 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Picairn wrote:Do you think NATO would immediately surrender once Russia occupied the Baltic countries ersumthing?

If anything such action would do more to justify NATO's existence than anything else in the past 30 years.


Why does Russia have a right to invade the Baltic states?
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Postby Genivaria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:50 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Genivaria wrote:If anything such action would do more to justify NATO's existence than anything else in the past 30 years.


Why does Russia have a right to invade the Baltic states?

I....didn't say they did.
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