The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

[Orostan]

The issue is nukes being used by accident in a high tension situation. Nuclear use would be because of mistakes that have happened in the past and only narrowly allowed the survival of humanity.


I certainly hope none of us will, which is why I support de-escalation and a quick Russian victory.

I hope so too, which is why I support the destruction of any real power the Kremlin has in international politics and the confinement of Putin into utter irrelevancy. He is the only one threatening nuclear war, or even escalating this invasion for that matter. In the unnecessarily crass words of Slavoj Žižek,

”All of us from countries which have to witness the sad affair of Ukraine’s rape should be aware that only a real castration prevents rape. So we should recommend that the international community carries out a castrative operation on Russia — ignoring and marginalizing them as much as possible, making it sure that afterwards, nothing else will grow of their global authority.”

Russia is standing up for its own interests against NATO. If Zizek wants to prevent the rape of nations he should support Russia liberating Ukraine from NATO and multipolarity.

[Adamede]

Which is why they support Russia annexing the entire region.

nazis do not support the putinist/socialist/marxist restoration of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic

Ah yes the billionaire socialist Putin.

[El Lazaro]

I think it’s boring when people throw ”fascist” around lightly, but would it still be unfair if I just start calling Putin shills Nazis? All of the arguments that justify invasion have literally been Nazi-tier bs or actual Nazis salivating over ethnonationalist warmongering.

nazis do not support self-determination and nazis do not support states that call themselves people's republics

That’s a diplomatic way of phrasing “blood and soil,” but I concede that supporters of the Nationalist Socialist German Worker’s Party really are above deceptive naming.

[Hispida]

Which is why they support Russia annexing the entire region.

nazis do not support the putinist/socialist/marxist restoration of the ukrainian soviet socialist republic

god i wish this was happening

[Adamede]

Thank you for your insight, it's certainly a take I haven't heard yet. Appreciate it.

It is important to look at this from Russia's point of view and get past all the media propaganda. If the media and government lied to us about Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, and every other war why would they not lie about this one?

And how do you know that Russian media isn't lying?

[The Grand World Order]

There's lots of "literal Nazis" on both sides. Labeling one as "the Nazi side" in either case is pure propaganda.

No, there are only nazis on the Ukranian side like the Azov Battalion, Right Sector, and a bunch of other fascist operation GLADIO gangs that control Ukraine's government.

Task Force Rusich, plus Russia has weaponized the Russian Imperial Movement as a way to destabilize adversaries, albeit the two don't -really- get along with each other, so RIM is more of a tool than a buddy of Putin's.

Once again, neither side is "the Nazi side," but both sides have Nazis.

[Big Jim P]

This is why I unironically believe Putin would be treading much more carefully if Trump was still in charge. Not because Trump is particularly responsible or a good statesman, but just because he's so unpredictable. Dude could be threatening to nuke Moscow, I can see it.

Not really, Trump basically owed his entire presidency to Putin.

I didn't realize people still believe the Russian collusion lie. Wow.

[Des-Bal]

He also has zero incentive to make the threat and not follow through, because then MAD goes out the window.

No he 100% does because in one scenario Russia continues to exist in the other it doesn't. MAD is gone either way because if you go nuclear you popped the bubble you can't use nuclear war as a deterrent when you launched a nuclear war.

[Jerzylvania]

I hope so too, which is why I support the destruction of any real power the Kremlin has in international politics and the confinement of Putin into utter irrelevancy. He is the only one threatening nuclear war, or even escalating this invasion for that matter. In the unnecessarily crass words of Slavoj Žižek,

”All of us from countries which have to witness the sad affair of Ukraine’s rape should be aware that only a real castration prevents rape. So we should recommend that the international community carries out a castrative operation on Russia — ignoring and marginalizing them as much as possible, making it sure that afterwards, nothing else will grow of their global authority.”

Russia is standing up for its own interests against NATO. If Zizek wants to prevent the rape of nations he should support Russia liberating Ukraine from NATO and multipolarity.

Piffle.

[The Nihilistic view]

Very curious to see you explain this in a little more depth, if you don't mind.

NATO has been expanding as far as it could since 1991 in violation of agreements it had with the USSR and Russia. It is doing this because the west has never been able to fully control Russia and wants to encircle Russia. It is better for Russia to launch a war against a Ukraine which is run in large part by nazis, makes its intention to join NATO and create an unacceptable security problem for Russia known, and has recently talked about having nuclear weapons. This invasion will save lives in the long term.

"That damn Jewish nazi running Ukraine"

[The Commonwealth of Tennessee]

So what seems to be the general consensus around the Russian army stopping short of Kyiv this evening? Waiting for supply (like they should, for a tactical perspective), catching their breath before a major assault, preparing artillery or other set-up weaponry, or a mixture of all of the above?

[Grenartia]

The problem about Trump is that there’s a different between madman theory and just being a madman. The guy had no spine when it came to actually doing stuff either and the rhetorical equivalent of slurring drunk threats at everyone around you becomes pretty meaningless without that.

Trump was totally not opposed to major escalations, though- he assassinated Qassem Soleimani as one example.
Really the only reason that story is implausible(although it is unproven) would be if you unironically believe he was a Russian asset.

I mean, to anyone who knows the kind of man he truly is and who isn't drowning in Qanon propaganda, its pretty obvious that he is a Russian asset, even to this day.

[El Lazaro]

I hope so too, which is why I support the destruction of any real power the Kremlin has in international politics and the confinement of Putin into utter irrelevancy. He is the only one threatening nuclear war, or even escalating this invasion for that matter. In the unnecessarily crass words of Slavoj Žižek,

”All of us from countries which have to witness the sad affair of Ukraine’s rape should be aware that only a real castration prevents rape. So we should recommend that the international community carries out a castrative operation on Russia — ignoring and marginalizing them as much as possible, making it sure that afterwards, nothing else will grow of their global authority.”

Russia is standing up for its own interests against NATO. If Zizek wants to prevent the rape of nations he should support Russia liberating Ukraine from NATO and multipolarity.

This is literally just an extreme form of imperialism, tankie “literature” is one hell of a drug. Do you have beliefs other than “America bad”?

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

This is so annoying. Can all American posters stop discussing internal American politic for this instance? We have discussed your domestics for years now, current situation is bigger than red v blue.

Like it or not, what American politicians think about the situation in Ukraine is entirely relevant to this thread, as that inherently has implications for American policy in regards to Ukraine, Russia, and NATO.

America has formed it's consensus, we already know what Congress - Senate - and Executive have proposed and done. We already gauged media and public support. Nothing more is needed. America isn't a special snowflake that the world revolves around.
Even in horrific wars we must, for whatever nationalistic Yankee reason, reduce everything to what 'Mitt Romney has tweeted' or whatever bullshit. Unless it's truly a crucial announcement, it's unimportant.

[Adamede]

He also has zero incentive to make the threat and not follow through, because then MAD goes out the window.

No he 100% does because in one scenario Russia continues to exist in the other it doesn't. MAD is gone either way because if you go nuclear you popped the bubble you can't use nuclear war as a deterrent when you launched a nuclear war.

The threat of nuclear war IS the deterrence. Hence why Putin made the threat and why the West hasn't intervened.

[Bombadil]

Ukraine is full of nazis and I would be banned from calling Ukraine supporters nazis. Why should you get to say something stupid like this when the invasion is only happening because of NATO expansion against Russia and Ukraine's own government?

Ukraine does have a far-right movement, and its armed defenders include the Azov battalion, a far-right nationalist militia group. But no democratic country is free of far-right nationalist groups, including the United States. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right was humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. This is far less support than far-right parties receive across western Europe, including inarguably democratic countries such as France and Germany.

Link

Doesn't seem that full of Nazis.. especially given 70% voted for a Jewish leader.. except that..

Putin, the leader of Russian Christian nationalism, has come to view himself as the global leader of Christian nationalism, and is increasingly regarded as such by Christian nationalists around the world, including in the United States. Putin has emerged as a leader of this movement in part because of the global reach of recent Russian fascist thinkers such as Alexander Dugin and Alexander Prokhanov who laid its groundwork.

It is easy to recognize, in Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, the roadmap laid out in recent years by Dugin and Prokhanov, major figures in Putin’s Russia. Both Dugin and Prokhanov viewed an independent Ukraine as an existential threat to their goal, which Timothy Snyder, in his 2018 book The Road to Unfreedom, describes as “a desire for the return of Soviet power in fascist form”.

The form of Russian fascism Dugin and Prokhanov defended is like the central versions of European fascism – explicitly antisemitic. As Snyder writes, “… if Prokhanov had a core belief, it was the endless struggle of the empty and abstract sea-people against the hearty and righteous land-people. Like Adolf Hitler, Prokhanov blamed world Jewry for inventing the ideas that enslaved his homeland. He also blamed them for the Holocaust.”

The dominant version of antisemitism alive in parts of eastern Europe today is that Jews employ the Holocaust to seize the victimhood narrative from the “real” victims of the Nazis, who are Russian Christians (or other non-Jewish eastern Europeans). Those who embrace Russian Christian nationalist ideology will be especially susceptible to this strain of antisemitism.

With this background, we can understand why Putin chose the actions he did, as well as the words he used to justify them. Ukraine has always been the primary target of those who seek to restore “Soviet power in fascist form”. Echoing familiar fascist antisemitic tropes, in a 2021 article, former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev denounced Zelenskiy as disgusting, corrupt and faithless. The free democratic election of a Jewish president confirms in the fascist mind that the fascist bogeyman of liberal democracy as a tool for global Jewish domination is real.

[Orostan]

So far as NATO expansion goes, an agreement with Russia has never been codified nor was any ever signed or made formal. There was a verbal agreement at best, but I forget which individual(s) it was that effectively made promises that couldn't be kept once they were out of the picture or retired and successors with different priorities came in.

https://www.rt.com/news/549921-nato-exp ... -document/

NATO officials promised Russia there would be no NATO expansion and excuses like the one you gave only mean that Russia can never trust the west again. Russia clearly believed there had been a pledge for NATO not to expand.

Russia is standing up for its own interests against NATO. If Zizek wants to prevent the rape of nations he should support Russia liberating Ukraine from NATO and multipolarity.

This is literally just an extreme form of imperialism, tankie “literature” is one hell of a drug. Do you have beliefs other than “America bad”?

Imperialism is not "when the army does stuff", imperialism is a system of financial domination that Russia is fighting against.

NATO has been expanding as far as it could since 1991 in violation of agreements it had with the USSR and Russia. It is doing this because the west has never been able to fully control Russia and wants to encircle Russia. It is better for Russia to launch a war against a Ukraine which is run in large part by nazis, makes its intention to join NATO and create an unacceptable security problem for Russia known, and has recently talked about having nuclear weapons. This invasion will save lives in the long term.

"That damn Jewish nazi running Ukraine"

There were Jewish Nazi collaborators and Zelensky is one of them. Do you think the Azov Battalion or Right Sector do not exist?

[Senkaku]

former deputy foreign minister claims Putin's initial order aimed to finish operations by March 2

lines up with the rumors about them only having ten days' worth of rocket ammo or whatever lol

[Adamede]

So what seems to be the general consensus around the Russian army stopping short of Kyiv this evening? Waiting for supply (like they should, for a tactical perspective), catching their breath before a major assault, preparing artillery or other set-up weaponry, or a mixture of all of the above?

Most likely regrouping and resupplying but probable that some artillery and bombardment will be thrown in for good measure.

[Des-Bal]

The threat of nuclear war IS the deterrence. Hence why Putin made the threat and why the West hasn't intervened.

You're circling the point. He ALREADY did the escalation that is a deterrent carrying out the threat provides a host of consequences and no additional benefit.

[The Grand World Order]

NATO has been expanding as far as it could since 1991 in violation of agreements it had with the USSR and Russia. It is doing this because the west has never been able to fully control Russia and wants to encircle Russia. It is better for Russia to launch a war against a Ukraine which is run in large part by nazis, makes its intention to join NATO and create an unacceptable security problem for Russia known, and has recently talked about having nuclear weapons. This invasion will save lives in the long term.

"That damn Jewish nazi running Ukraine"

to be fair, people call Israel a Nazi state all the time.

95% of the time, if someone's saying an organization is Fascist or Nazi, they have 0% clue what they're talking about.



Also as far as American politics go, tying a horrific event and the person behind it to the GOP is a desperate grab for more votes to avoid a midterm shellacking.

[Orostan]

Ukraine is full of nazis and I would be banned from calling Ukraine supporters nazis. Why should you get to say something stupid like this when the invasion is only happening because of NATO expansion against Russia and Ukraine's own government?

Ukraine does have a far-right movement, and its armed defenders include the Azov battalion, a far-right nationalist militia group. But no democratic country is free of far-right nationalist groups, including the United States. In the 2019 election, the Ukrainian far right was humiliated, receiving only 2% of the vote. This is far less support than far-right parties receive across western Europe, including inarguably democratic countries such as France and Germany.

Link

Doesn't seem that full of Nazis.. especially given 70% voted for a Jewish leader.. except that..

Putin, the leader of Russian Christian nationalism, has come to view himself as the global leader of Christian nationalism, and is increasingly regarded as such by Christian nationalists around the world, including in the United States. Putin has emerged as a leader of this movement in part because of the global reach of recent Russian fascist thinkers such as Alexander Dugin and Alexander Prokhanov who laid its groundwork.

It is easy to recognize, in Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, the roadmap laid out in recent years by Dugin and Prokhanov, major figures in Putin’s Russia. Both Dugin and Prokhanov viewed an independent Ukraine as an existential threat to their goal, which Timothy Snyder, in his 2018 book The Road to Unfreedom, describes as “a desire for the return of Soviet power in fascist form”.

The form of Russian fascism Dugin and Prokhanov defended is like the central versions of European fascism – explicitly antisemitic. As Snyder writes, “… if Prokhanov had a core belief, it was the endless struggle of the empty and abstract sea-people against the hearty and righteous land-people. Like Adolf Hitler, Prokhanov blamed world Jewry for inventing the ideas that enslaved his homeland. He also blamed them for the Holocaust.”

The dominant version of antisemitism alive in parts of eastern Europe today is that Jews employ the Holocaust to seize the victimhood narrative from the “real” victims of the Nazis, who are Russian Christians (or other non-Jewish eastern Europeans). Those who embrace Russian Christian nationalist ideology will be especially susceptible to this strain of antisemitism.

With this background, we can understand why Putin chose the actions he did, as well as the words he used to justify them. Ukraine has always been the primary target of those who seek to restore “Soviet power in fascist form”. Echoing familiar fascist antisemitic tropes, in a 2021 article, former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev denounced Zelenskiy as disgusting, corrupt and faithless. The free democratic election of a Jewish president confirms in the fascist mind that the fascist bogeyman of liberal democracy as a tool for global Jewish domination is real.

Dugin isn't an anti-semite or a nazi and that article is garbage. Also the Azov battalion is an OFFICIAL part of Ukraine's armed forces, you cannot say the same about neo-nazis in any other country.

[Adamede]

snip

Bruh fix that quote right now because you're making it look like that's what I said instead of the other guy.

E: Thank you

[Grenartia]

Very curious to see you explain this in a little more depth, if you don't mind.

NATO has been expanding as far as it could since 1991 in violation of agreements it had with the USSR and Russia. It is doing this because the west has never been able to fully control Russia and wants to encircle Russia. It is better for Russia to launch a war against a Ukraine which is run in large part by nazis, makes its intention to join NATO and create an unacceptable security problem for Russia known, and has recently talked about having nuclear weapons. This invasion will save lives in the long term.

Look, I know you Russians have limited access to information, so I'll just repeat: nobody (other than Russia, as Dio pointed out) held a gun to Eastern Europe's head. Eastern Europe has experienced Russian oppression in its recent history, and sees Russia's oppression of its own people and in other places, and recognizes that joining NATO is the only way to avoid a repeat of history. All NATO did is respect the sovereignty of its members and its neighbors, and be morally superior to Putin's Russia.

[Adamede]

The threat of nuclear war IS the deterrence. Hence why Putin made the threat and why the West hasn't intervened.

You're circling the point. He ALREADY did the escalation that is a deterrent carrying out the threat provides a host of consequences and no additional benefit.

And the west gains no benefit from provoking the nuclear bear by sending in boots.