The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

[United Inazuma]

You don't understand how close this brings us to nuclear war. You think Russia is this paper tiger you have been built up by the media to believe it is when Russia is one of the world's largest nuclear powers. NATO's expansion onto Russia's borders and it acting like offensive moves are defensive is a threat to humanity itself.

You right, I don’t listen to Kermlin propaganda because I’m not a anti-western misanthropist. Russian’s borders don’t include Estonia and Latvia. And they certainly don’t include former members of the Warsaw pac. These are sovereign countries. Russia has NO right to invade them.

You know, you make a great point. We must show resolve and then Russia will likely back down. We CANNOT show cowardice or submissiveness. The reason Russia is hated by many Central/Eastern European nations is due to the history of Czarist and Soviet oppression of those nations. If a country joins NATO, it is because they elect to. Doesn't stop them from dealing with Russia. Turkey is an example of a nation that seems to be an intermediary between Russia and NATO. Russia (China too) is having a massive demographic crisis and is going to eventually run out of people. They cannot exactly afford another catastrophic war after Two World Wars and a devastating Civil War which made the Yugoslav Wars look like 20 neighborhood kids with Squirt Guns by comparison.

[New Baltenstein]

Whenever this "what if Mexico" scenario comes up, one has to point out that it's simply impossible to evaluate without context. How did this situation come to pass? Was there a coup? A revolution? An invasion? Did the US do something nasty (well, nastier than usual) to piss off Mexican public opinion so much that the average Mexican voted pro-Russian politicians into office?
Without all these factors, it's impossible to ponder that question - unless you think that great powers are the only ones acting on their own volition and nations like Mexico or Ukraine are just the space they choose to set up shop in.

[Senkaku]

Again, I'm not saying that's not in there. I'm just saying that's the least interesting reading of the book. And is hardly the "core theme."

I'm not sure what being "interesting" has to do with anything. War is what ties together every other aspect of the book, which in my opinion makes it the core theme.

The core theme is that Orwell was sexually frustrated and probably had PTSD from the Spanish civil war, I think it might be time for you to move on from 1498 to better & more challenging things

[Balheim]

You right, I don’t listen to Kermlin propaganda because I’m not a anti-western misanthropist. Russian’s borders don’t include Estonia and Latvia. And they certainly don’t include former members of the Warsaw pac. These are sovereign countries. Russia has NO right to invade them.

You know, you make a great point. We must show resolve and then Russia will likely back down. We CANNOT show cowardice or submissiveness. The reason Russia is hated by many Central/Eastern European nations is due to the history of Czarist and Soviet oppression of those nations. If a country joins NATO, it is because they elect to. Doesn't stop them from dealing with Russia. Turkey is an example of a nation that seems to be an intermediary between Russia and NATO. Russia (China too) is having a massive demographic crisis and is going to eventually run out of people. They cannot exactly afford another catastrophic war after Two World Wars and a devastating Civil War which made the Yugoslav Wars look like 20 neighborhood kids with Squirt Guns by comparison.

The Soviets themselves did not oppress the nations, it was Stalin and the later years of Bolshevik rule. Stalin's policies arguably ruined the freedom of the USSR, and if Stalin was not leader it would have been much better off.

[GB and Ireland]

It's not worth the west getting involved.

Somebody made a good point about how the US would react to Russia constructing facilities in Mexico.

Maybe they same way they did when nuclear missiles were on Cuba sixty years ago?

Yeah. That's kind of my point.

[Senkaku]

Whenever this "what if Mexico" scenario comes up, one has to point out that it's simply impossible to evaluate without context. How did this situation come to pass? Was there a coup? A revolution? An invasion? Did the US do something nasty (well, nastier than usual) to piss off Mexican public opinion so much that the average Mexican voted pro-Russian politicians into office?
Without all these factors, it's impossible to ponder that question - unless you think that great powers are the only ones acting on their own volition and nations like Mexico or Ukraine are just the space they choose to set up shop in.

I mean we have a wide array of different historical scenarios with European powers meddling in different parts of Latin America to compare to, both in terms of the domestic political situation that led to the incident and the level and type of American response, so I don’t think the question is quite as “impossible to ponder” as you suggest

[New Baltenstein]

Whenever this "what if Mexico" scenario comes up, one has to point out that it's simply impossible to evaluate without context. How did this situation come to pass? Was there a coup? A revolution? An invasion? Did the US do something nasty (well, nastier than usual) to piss off Mexican public opinion so much that the average Mexican voted pro-Russian politicians into office?
Without all these factors, it's impossible to ponder that question - unless you think that great powers are the only ones acting on their own volition and nations like Mexico or Ukraine are just the space they choose to set up shop in.

I mean we have a wide array of different historical scenarios with European powers meddling in different parts of Latin America to compare to, both in terms of the domestic political situation that led to the incident and the level and type of American response, so I don’t think the question is quite as “impossible to ponder” as you suggest

Surely people aren't in agreement that these examples were all just and proper so therefore Russia can act along the same lines though?

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

You right, I don’t listen to Kermlin propaganda because I’m not a anti-western misanthropist. Russian’s borders don’t include Estonia and Latvia. And they certainly don’t include former members of the Warsaw pac. These are sovereign countries. Russia has NO right to invade them.

You know, you make a great point. We must show resolve and then Russia will likely back down. We CANNOT show cowardice or submissiveness. The reason Russia is hated by many Central/Eastern European nations is due to the history of Czarist and Soviet oppression of those nations. If a country joins NATO, it is because they elect to. Doesn't stop them from dealing with Russia. Turkey is an example of a nation that seems to be an intermediary between Russia and NATO. Russia (China too) is having a massive demographic crisis and is going to eventually run out of people. They cannot exactly afford another catastrophic war after Two World Wars and a devastating Civil War which made the Yugoslav Wars look like 20 neighborhood kids with Squirt Guns by comparison.

We do not want to be a party, I do not see America as a real NATO partner, in my eyes, the real NATO is European countries.

[Senkaku]

I mean we have a wide array of different historical scenarios with European powers meddling in different parts of Latin America to compare to, both in terms of the domestic political situation that led to the incident and the level and type of American response, so I don’t think the question is quite as “impossible to ponder” as you suggest

Surely people aren't in agreement that these examples were all just and proper so therefore Russia can act along the same lines though?

Again: “justice” isn’t the relevant consideration; it’s whether it’s worth it to us to seriously try and stop them. Doing some fairly easy, lower-stakes stuff to make their life a little harder and show some moral support is one thing— slipping the Ukrainians some antitank missiles or whatever, that’s not much different than the Russians did when we were fucking with the Cubans or the Salvadorans or the Nicaraguans or whoever, albeit this is arguably on a slightly larger scale. But actually risking nuclear war over the fate of some rickety oligarchy on the far side of the world? That’s just deranged— and they feel the same way, why do you think they backed down during the Cuban crisis?

[Umeria]

I'm not sure what being "interesting" has to do with anything. War is what ties together every other aspect of the book, which in my opinion makes it the core theme.

The core theme is that Orwell was sexually frustrated and probably had PTSD from the Spanish civil war, I think it might be time for you to move on from 1498 to better & more challenging things

Those things are often considered positives when it comes to writing? Anyway I get your point, but there is value in translating concepts that can be incredibly dense and confusing when discussed in pure academic terms into something people enjoy reading.

[Lord Dominator]

Wut?

I’m literally saying I don’t think there’s going to be war in either that sea internal to Turkey or in the Black Sea - and especially not in the way of violations of said treaty. At most, maybe Russia goes after Ukraine with whatever navy they have there.

Look, I can't express myself. Universal agreements are truly binding diplomatic documents. For example, the clear indication of a crime in the law legally binds that action to the law. Assumptions are just assumptions, laws are protective.

Okay, what?

You’re the only one in this thread who thinks that this whole Ukraine thing will somehow involve massive war operations in/around Turkey. At present, the extent of your basis for that is proximity and a few NATO members sending a few ships into the Black Sea. Please feel free to cite sources indicating that something much larger is likely to happening the event of Russian invasion of Ukraine, but until then everyone here just sees you as trying to derail the thread into a non-issue.

[Senkaku]

The core theme is that Orwell was sexually frustrated and probably had PTSD from the Spanish civil war, I think it might be time for you to move on from 1498 to better & more challenging things

Those things are often considered positives when it comes to writing?

LMAO what

Anyway I get your point, but there is value in translating concepts that can be incredibly dense and confusing when discussed in pure academic terms into something people enjoy reading.

Well then Orwell is even more worthless than I thought because I have never met a single soul who “enjoyed reading” 1984– it’s a misanthropic slog written by a pest that’s been laundered by the postwar liberal democracies into a political fable for middle schoolers to remind them “dictatorship bad,” the best things you can say about it are that it has some fun worldbuilding and it’s mercifully brief

[-Astoria-]

Those things are often considered positives when it comes to writing?

LMAO what

Anyway I get your point, but there is value in translating concepts that can be incredibly dense and confusing when discussed in pure academic terms into something people enjoy reading.

Well then Orwell is even more worthless than I thought because I have never met a single soul who “enjoyed reading” 1984– it’s a misanthropic slog written by a pest that’s been laundered by the postwar liberal democracies into a political fable for middle schoolers to remind them “dictatorship bad,” the best things you can say about it are that it has some fun worldbuilding and it’s mercifully brief

Is this necessarily a bad thing, though?

[Lord Dominator]

1984 is a worldbuilding exercise about dictatorship and Orwell’s beliefs about the future (at the time)/revolution/etc with a story bolted on, lol.

[Senkaku]

LMAO what

Well then Orwell is even more worthless than I thought because I have never met a single soul who “enjoyed reading” 1984– it’s a misanthropic slog written by a pest that’s been laundered by the postwar liberal democracies into a political fable for middle schoolers to remind them “dictatorship bad,” the best things you can say about it are that it has some fun worldbuilding and it’s mercifully brief

Is this necessarily a bad thing, though?

Is legitimizing a 300-page screed from the twilight of one hack’s career as a work of literary & political genius and using it to desensitize and blind generations of students to the political machinery of their own society a bad thing? I guess that depends on your views about education and democracy, but we’re getting a bit far from the imminent invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces

[Hispida]

1984 is a worldbuilding exercise about dictatorship and Orwell’s beliefs about the future (at the time)/revolution/etc with a story bolted on, lol.

it also sucks

[Umeria]

Those things are often considered positives when it comes to writing?

LMAO what

Just having a little fun

Anyway I get your point, but there is value in translating concepts that can be incredibly dense and confusing when discussed in pure academic terms into something people enjoy reading.

Well then Orwell is even more worthless than I thought because I have never met a single soul who “enjoyed reading” 1984– it’s a misanthropic slog written by a pest that’s been laundered by the postwar liberal democracies into a political fable for middle schoolers to remind them “dictatorship bad,” the best things you can say about it are that it has some fun worldbuilding and it’s mercifully brief

I guess "enjoy" isn't the right word - maybe "digestible" would describe it better. It's much easier to pick up and read from start to finish than many modern books. And just because the surface-level interpretations have been pushed on us doesn't mean there isn't anything else; its lessons about endless war were how it came up in this thread.

1984 is a worldbuilding exercise about dictatorship and Orwell’s beliefs about the future (at the time)/revolution/etc with a story bolted on, lol.

it also sucks

If there's one thing I aggressively disagree with people further left of me on, its their taste in art. Not really something you can debate though.

[Free Algerstonia]

I just wish that the three largest nations in the world weren't all corrupt and oppressive.

It's like George Orwell's 1984.

Vaccine fascism and Putin imperialism and no Winnie the Pooh is making Big Brother's dreams come true

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Look, I can't express myself. Universal agreements are truly binding diplomatic documents. For example, the clear indication of a crime in the law legally binds that action to the law. Assumptions are just assumptions, laws are protective.

Okay, what?

You’re the only one in this thread who thinks that this whole Ukraine thing will somehow involve massive war operations in/around Turkey. At present, the extent of your basis for that is proximity and a few NATO members sending a few ships into the Black Sea. Please feel free to cite sources indicating that something much larger is likely to happening the event of Russian invasion of Ukraine, but until then everyone here just sees you as trying to derail the thread into a non-issue.

Oh my god, I understand you now, sorry really thank you for your explanatory post. In the reports, more emphasis is placed on ecocrime, but I think that I should find the reports you want, the owner of the claim is obliged to prove it. Sorry again.
Read This Please
104 Retired Admirals Statement

[Salus Maior]

Look, I can't express myself..

The most truthful thing you've ever said.

[Salus Maior]

Look, I can't express myself..

The most truthful thing you've ever said.

[New Baltenstein]

Okay, what?

You’re the only one in this thread who thinks that this whole Ukraine thing will somehow involve massive war operations in/around Turkey. At present, the extent of your basis for that is proximity and a few NATO members sending a few ships into the Black Sea. Please feel free to cite sources indicating that something much larger is likely to happening the event of Russian invasion of Ukraine, but until then everyone here just sees you as trying to derail the thread into a non-issue.

Oh my god, I understand you now, sorry really thank you for your explanatory post. In the reports, more emphasis is placed on ecocrime, but I think that I should find the reports you want, the owner of the claim is obliged to prove it. Sorry again.
Read This Please
104 Retired Admirals Statement

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that I feel much more enlightened now, thanks Hakinda.

Again: “justice” isn’t the relevant consideration; it’s whether it’s worth it to us to seriously try and stop them. Doing some fairly easy, lower-stakes stuff to make their life a little harder and show some moral support is one thing— slipping the Ukrainians some antitank missiles or whatever, that’s not much different than the Russians did when we were fucking with the Cubans or the Salvadorans or the Nicaraguans or whoever, albeit this is arguably on a slightly larger scale. But actually risking nuclear war over the fate of some rickety oligarchy on the far side of the world? That’s just deranged— and they feel the same way, why do you think they backed down during the Cuban crisis?

Well, the difference with this particular example would be that in the end, Cuba preserved its right to choose with which foreign power/alliance it pursued closer ties with. The Soviets withdrew their missiles but also the US backed off of Cuba (the occasional comically inept assassination attempt nonwithstanding). Whereas Russia doesn't seem to contest only the scenario of US/NATO offensive weapons, pointed at Russian cities, on Ukrainian soil, but the idea that Ukraine should have an independent say in its foreign and domestic affairs in general. And buying stuff like anti-tank missiles seems a perfectly legitimate course of action when one's borders are threatened by a larger neighbor.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Oh my god, I understand you now, sorry really thank you for your explanatory post. In the reports, more emphasis is placed on ecocrime, but I think that I should find the reports you want, the owner of the claim is obliged to prove it. Sorry again.
Read This Please
104 Retired Admirals Statement

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that I feel much more enlightened now, thanks Hakinda.

No, I don't agree with you, this is not a very explanatory source, it's the university-supported thesis publications that I need to find.

[TheFlyingDutchman]

Regardless of which side, if any, is right or wrong, I honestly think that America is making too big of a deal out of this. It is highly unlikely that Putin would invade Ukraine in the first place. The Ukrainian military of 2022 is far better trained, better organized, better equipped, more experienced, and better motivated than it was back in 2014. While Russia's military is still a lot larger and stronger than Ukraine's, it would suffer heavy casaulties in any new invasion. When you consider that the Ukrainian civilian population is also fairly well-armed, the Russians would have a difficult time holding and occupying any territory that they take. Furthermore, the Russian people would not like the cost of an offensive war. The Russian economy is already struggling enough and the disasterous Soviet War in Afghanistan is still somewhat fresh in Russian memory. As Russia takes casaulties and the Russian economy suffers even more, Putin would lose a lot of his popularity as his own people turn against him.

Putin is a smart man, and I am sure that he knows that any invasion would be a bad idea. Even the Ukrainian government and society know that an invasion is highly unlikely. I think that what Putin is trying do is just make a point by flexing his muscles while simultaneously airing his grievances against a military alliance that is gradually encircling Russia. Biden isn't helping the situation with his opportunistic saber-rattling to try to distract everyone from his numerous failures in office.

[Salus Maior]

Regardless of which side, if any, is right or wrong, I honestly think that America is making too big of a deal out of this. It is highly unlikely that Putin would invade Ukraine in the first place. The Ukrainian military of 2022 is far better trained, better organized, better equipped, more experienced, and better motivated than it was back in 2014. While Russia's military is still a lot larger and stronger than Ukraine's, it would suffer heavy casaulties in any new invasion. When you consider that the Ukrainian civilian population is also fairly well-armed, the Russians would have a difficult time holding and occupying any territory that they take. Furthermore, the Russian people would not like the cost of an offensive war. The Russian economy is already struggling enough and the disasterous Soviet War in Afghanistan is still somewhat fresh in Russian memory. As Russia takes casaulties and the Russian economy suffers even more, Putin would lose a lot of his popularity as his own people turn against him.

Putin is a smart man, and I am sure that he knows that any invasion would be a bad idea. Even the Ukrainian government and society know that an invasion is highly unlikely. I think that what Putin is trying do is just make a point by flexing his muscles while simultaneously airing his grievances against a military alliance that is gradually encircling Russia. Biden isn't helping the situation with his opportunistic saber-rattling to try to distract everyone from his numerous failures in office.

Eh, well...How Ukraine's air defense?

Because once that goes, all conventional war is in Russia's favor.