The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

[Juristonia]

Once again I reiterate, Iraq in 2003 was a war of aggression. It should’ve been opposed, and was opposed by many.

Putin’s war is also a war of aggression and should also be opposed, especially on the basis of this weird ethnic nationalist imperial nostalgia he’s basing it on.

Ukraine's kleptocracy and implicit acceptance of Nazis in its government should also be opposed.

This isn't some binary black and white thing. Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

Ukraine's kleptocracy and weird Nazi groups won't be punished, though, because the West has given Ukraine a green light to continue being a illiberal, kleptocratic stain on Eastern Europe if it wins.

If NATO wants Ukraine in it it better be ready to let in Belarus and Russia too, because they're all the same thing lol.

This shtick is transparent and not convincing anyone.

[Adamede]

That was only possible because the USSR threw a pissy fit the day of and didn’t attend the meeting. I don’t think they’ll repeat that mistake again.

To be fair, there is now serious talk over whether or not Russia qualifies as a true successor-state to the USSR.

Thus disqualifying them from UNSEC.

Same goes for China.

*Watches as Russia gets replaced with Ukraine on the Security Council*

Russia has the nukes. They're not going anywhere. It's the same reason why the PRC is the Chinese government with a UNSC seat (and UN representation).

[Gallia-]

Ukraine's kleptocracy and implicit acceptance of Nazis in its government should also be opposed.

This isn't some binary black and white thing. Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

Ukraine's kleptocracy and weird Nazi groups won't be punished, though, because the West has given Ukraine a green light to continue being a illiberal, kleptocratic stain on Eastern Europe if it wins.

If NATO wants Ukraine in it it better be ready to let in Belarus and Russia too, because they're all the same thing lol.

The West already puts up with the United States, kleptocracy and weird Nazi stuff are our comfort food

The poorest guy won the election in 2020. Some kleptocracy lmao.

Ukraine's kleptocracy and implicit acceptance of Nazis in its government should also be opposed.

This isn't some binary black and white thing. Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

Ukraine's kleptocracy and weird Nazi groups won't be punished, though, because the West has given Ukraine a green light to continue being a illiberal, kleptocratic stain on Eastern Europe if it wins.

If NATO wants Ukraine in it it better be ready to let in Belarus and Russia too, because they're all the same thing lol.

Hogwash.

IDK cope I guess.

Who would fight Azov if beat the Russians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Ukraini.
Who would fight Kadyrovsty if they beat the Ukrainians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Rossiya.

Imagine thinking Ukraine and Russia are different. That's a crazy take.

Well they are different. Ukraine has enough people to be a basis for a ethno-nationalist Ukrainian state. Russia is already a plurality state with many hundreds of ethnes and religions co-existing under a federal dictatorship.

[Adamede]

I’m hearing that Ukrainian civilian deaths are at 352

From what I've read that number is supposed to be both military and civilian deaths combined. You getting that from the Kyiv Independent?

[Senkaku]

Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

[Adamede]

Very late but I’m watching an old Hasan clip and he justified both ethno-nationalism and ultra-imperialism, going as far as saying Hitler’s takeover of Austria wasn’t wrong and Hitler only became the bad guy when he started killing lots Jews. He then asked for proof of massive death camps from anyone saying Putin is in the wrong. What a fucking statement to retract and act like it was just a bit of a mistake. The online left has takes further right of most Americans at this point, it’s a bunch of far-right apologetics under the mask of getting universal healthcare (while criticizing anything that could actually achieve it.) Genuine shithole, social media and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

American leftists online often have a poor grasp of things happening outside America.

It’s American exceptionalism in reverse, for people who are supposed to not be.

You’ll find the online left outside America might be more inclined to view things less myopically.

I love my country but Jesus Christ too many Americans are American-centric in their worldview.

[Luxenermy]

Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

Incredible point. Gold Star.

[Dtn]

Ukraine's kleptocracy and weird Nazi groups won't be punished, though, because the West has given Ukraine a green light to continue being a illiberal, kleptocratic stain on Eastern Europe if it wins.

Ukraine had very little choice about incorporating the Azovs and other militias into the National Guard - the alternative was warlordism with dozens of armed groups running around under no legal framework.

Unfortunately this only alleviated the problem somewhat, and while Azov gets the most publicity these groups have been largely autonomous and not above armed violence in the interest of their patrons or criminal interests.

It's quite naive to assume they aren't liquidating their political opponents in the chaos.

This is and other serious deficiencies in Ukraine's government don't justify the Russian invasion, but the reality is while the militia defense of Ukraine may seem inspiring today, in the long term it's a serious threat to Ukrainian democracy and a stable peace.

Not sure if anything can be done about it.

Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

I think Ukrainian women are slightly more attractive.

[Kowani]

I’m hearing that Ukrainian civilian deaths are at 352

From what I've read that number is supposed to be both military and civilian deaths combined. You getting that from the Kyiv Independent?

No, wait, you’re right

[Gallia-]

Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

Nah, it isn't.

[Adamede]

Anyone know what the fuck this is? I've got a feeling but don't know for sure.
E: Yes I know it's not a nuke.

[Senkaku]

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

Incredible point. Gold Star.

Thank you I'm glad someone's here to bear witness

From what I've read that number is supposed to be both military and civilian deaths combined. You getting that from the Kyiv Independent?

No, wait, you’re right

Surely there's no way it's that low, then, if the Russian casualties are already acknowledged in the thousands...?

[Jerzylvania]

The West already puts up with the United States, kleptocracy and weird Nazi stuff are our comfort food

The poorest guy won the election in 2020. Some kleptocracy lmao.

Hogwash.

IDK cope I guess.

Who would fight Azov if beat the Russians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Ukraini.
Who would fight Kadyrovsty if they beat the Ukrainians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Rossiya.

Imagine thinking Ukraine and Russia are different. That's a crazy take.

Hogwash.

[Estruia]

The West already puts up with the United States, kleptocracy and weird Nazi stuff are our comfort food

The poorest guy won the election in 2020. Some kleptocracy lmao.

Hogwash.

IDK cope I guess.

Who would fight Azov if beat the Russians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Ukraini.
Who would fight Kadyrovsty if they beat the Ukrainians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Rossiya.

Imagine thinking Ukraine and Russia are different. That's a crazy take.

Well they are different. Ukraine has enough people to be a basis for a ethno-nationalist Ukrainian state. Russia is already a plurality state with many hundreds of ethnes and religions co-existing under a federal dictatorship.

When was the last time a Ukrainian opposition leader was gunned down by the President of Ukraine? When was the last time Zelenskyy imprisoned his opponents? When was the last time there were state-sanctioned "disappearings" of LGBTQIA citizens in Ukraine (like what happened, and is happening in Chechnya)? When was the last time that Ukraine invaded their neighbor because it suited their interests?

While there are many things in common between Ukraine and Russia, they are VERY different states.

[Chan Island]

Ukraine and Russia are both equally bad. Russia is just invading Ukraine. That changes nothing.

If they're "both equally bad," then the fact that one is literally invading the other should in fact be the decisive factor in determining your allegiance!? Hello??

Ooooh, I think I’ve found a new quote for my sig.

[Shekelesh]

You know what, it's really worth pointing this out

It's literally correct though. Sergei Lavrov literally said "they will say, when we go home, that they caused us to back down," last week. That's simply the most obvious outcome. Russia won't invade because its exercise is scheduled to be over tomorrow. It might keep troops around just to make Ukraine think it will invade because it's a giant troll, but that's not anything new. Russia has always had troops in Crimea, in Moldova, in Russia, and in Belarus since 2014, though, so they aren't going to permanently just vacate the premises. Most of them might even stay a while.

The more damage Russia does to Ukraine the better for Russia because it's waging a cultural war on burgeoning Ukrainian nationalism. If it can demonstrate that Zelenskyy is incompetent (he isn't, but he isn't competent in the ways that the West likes; rather he's a competent consolidator, oligarch, and dictator like Lukashenko), that Ukraine has little to nothing to gain from puffing its chest as being Ukrainian, and perhaps that it could gain things by acquiescing to Russian demands, it might be able to change the outcome of Maidan. Maybe? I guess that's the vague long-term logic.

The short term idea is much simpler though: Russia wants to hold a military exercise with Belarus to show that it can protect itself from Ukrainian invasion. This is partly a genuine exercise of moving large amounts of equipment to the Russian frontier to stop a potential Polish/NATO invasion of Russia/regime change like Iraq in 2003, and partly a bit of political pressure on Zelenskyy. So far Zelenskyy is failing the test. Even his own defense officials are annoyed, and NATO says he's "amateurish", which is just embarrassing him.

I suspect if there's any real damage intended on Ukraine it's to make Zelenskyy look like a buffoon and potentially be ousted after a vote of no confidence. That seems unlikely since Zelenskyy is building a strong power base inside the government, because he's a competent court stacker, but it's a start I suppose.

Russia moving troops into the DPR?

You mean like they've done for the past 8 years? Say it ain't so!

Ah yes, an invasion that has been ongoing for 8 years.

I guess all those guys Russia sent to Ukraine in 2014 were just mercenaries lol.

That's a good addressing of my point.

Speaking to Sky News, Truss said that the situation is ambiguous due to the large amount of fake news circulating on the Internet, and the British intelligence services are trying to verify what is happening.

US intelligence agencies were just as bad as the average Twitterati. The invasion timeline they supposed was never correct, and they supposed four of them at separate times over the past week. It's not "spot on" in the slightest. Russia was probably feeding them false info to make them look like buffoons I guess while Putin was pre-recording his speeches lol. When your vaunted intelligence agencies can't determine if an area under Russian occupation for the better part of a decade has Russian troops in it or not then you know they're just talking hot air.

It's dumb luck that they were right about it because they kept saying "it's going to come tomorrow" for the past week.

Well this just goes back to Zelenskyy being a rubbish leader tbh. He didn't mobilize his army, he didn't save much of his air force (apparently) and he never allowed his civilians to evacuate with warning of attack. The Russians were going to invade one way or another this has been known for literal years, so saying "the invasion didn't need to be launched" is a bit preposterous.

Zelenskyy had advance warning and did little with it.

A small collection of quotes in sequence. To summarise:
>lol russia is not going to invade
>There is no "invasion" because russia has been invading for 8 years
>clever putin has outwitted western intelligence by invading at a different time
>everyone knew Russia was going to invade

The best part is this invasion-that-everyone-knew-would-happen was actually originally a ploy to show that Russia can "defend itself from Ukrainian invasion".

All aboard the cope train, destination BTFO station.

[A z a n i a]

Anyone know what the fuck this is? I've got a feeling but don't know for sure.

I... it's probably not a nuke. If it was it would have knocked out the guys phone or car at the very least.

[Gallia-]

Ukraine's kleptocracy and weird Nazi groups won't be punished, though, because the West has given Ukraine a green light to continue being a illiberal, kleptocratic stain on Eastern Europe if it wins.

Ukraine had very little choice about incorporating the Azovs and other militias into the National Guard - the alternative was warlordism with dozens of armed groups running around under no legal framework.

Unfortunately this only alleviated the problem somewhat, and while Azov gets the most publicity these groups have been largely autonomous and not above armed violence in the interest of their patrons or criminal interests.

It's quite naive to assume they aren't liquidating their political opponents in the chaos.

Yes that's what I'm saying.

This is and other serious deficiencies in Ukraine's government don't justify the Russian invasion, but the reality is while the militia defense of Ukraine may seem inspiring today, in the long term it's a serious threat to Ukrainian democracy and a stable peace.

Indeed. It's shockingly similar to Russia in the 90's with warlords running around (the "Russian mafia") like Dudayev and the Kadyrovites invading Dagestan to establish a Emirate.

Not sure if anything can be done about it.

I'd say that Ukraine being split along the East-South demographic lines would do something about it. The main issue in modern Ukraine, aside from kleptocracy and creeping illiberalism, is the Ukrainian x Russian identitarian crisis. But that just means Azov would move to Lviv or something I suppose.

Hogwash.

cope mald idk

Call me in 20 years when Azov changes the Ukrainian flag to incorporate Sonnenrads and Wolfsangels.

Russia's flag will have a big swastika replacing the star in the star and crescent on it.

[Hispida]

The poorest guy won the election in 2020. Some kleptocracy lmao.



IDK cope I guess.

Who would fight Azov if beat the Russians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Ukraini.
Who would fight Kadyrovsty if they beat the Ukrainians? No one. Because they're heroes slava Rossiya.

Imagine thinking Ukraine and Russia are different. That's a crazy take.

Well they are different. Ukraine has enough people to be a basis for a ethno-nationalist Ukrainian state. Russia is already a plurality state with many hundreds of ethnes and religions co-existing under a federal dictatorship.

When was the last time a Ukrainian opposition leader was gunned down by the President of Ukraine? When was the last time Zelenskyy imprisoned his opponents? When was the last time there were state-sanctioned "disappearings" of LGBTQIA citizens in Ukraine (like what happened, and is happening in Chechnya)? When was the last time that Ukraine invaded their neighbor because it suited their interests?

While there are many things in common between Ukraine and Russia, they are VERY different states.

honestly, saying ukraine and russia are the same thing is like saying canada and the US are the same thing

[Adamede]

Incredible point. Gold Star.

Thank you I'm glad someone's here to bear witness

No, wait, you’re right

Surely there's no way it's that low, then, if the Russian casualties are already acknowledged in the thousands...?

Both sides are going to be downplaying their casualties and inflating the casualties of the other side. Wikipedia lists the UK MoD estimates as aprox. 644 dead for the Ukrainians, but thats from the 24th and 25th.

[Hispida]

Anyone know what the fuck this is? I've got a feeling but don't know for sure.

most likely answer seems to be ammunition storage or thermobarics. it's too weak and dim to be a nuke and there's no EMP; if there was, we wouldn't be seeing this video.

[A z a n i a]

Anyone know what the fuck this is? I've got a feeling but don't know for sure.

most likely answer seems to be ammunition storage or thermobarics. it's too weak and dim to be a nuke and there's no EMP; if there was, we wouldn't be seeing this video.

Exactly. Though I can't say it didn't scare the hell out of me at first.

[Diopolis]

Incredible point. Gold Star.

Thank you I'm glad someone's here to bear witness

No, wait, you’re right

Surely there's no way it's that low, then, if the Russian casualties are already acknowledged in the thousands...?

There's a serious possibility that the Ukrainian government is lying about how the war's going.
While it's pretty apparent that it's going worse for Russia than expected, Ukraine's already been caught lying about Snek Island and the Ghost of Kyiv. It's not like misstating casualty figures by an order of magnitude, knowing they won't be verified for a while, would be totally out of the question for a country badly losing an existential war to a superior neighbor and dependent on foreign aid to keep its war machine afloat.

[Adamede]

Anyone know what the fuck this is? I've got a feeling but don't know for sure.

I... it's probably not a nuke. If it was it would have knocked out the guys phone or car at the very least.

I know it's not that but Russia has been moving thermobraic weapons into Ukraine.

[Gallia-]

When was the last time a Ukrainian opposition leader was gunned down by the President of Ukraine? When was the last time Zelenskyy imprisoned his opponents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko

When was the last time there were state-sanctioned "disappearings" of LGBTQIA citizens in Ukraine (like what happened, and is happening in Chechnya)?

Azov's killed a few I'd imagine. In times when nothing happens they use them as punching bags for fun.

When was the last time that Ukraine invaded their neighbor because it suited their interests?

They're too poor.

While there are many things in common between Ukraine and Russia, they are VERY different states.

Yeah one is really poor the other is crushingly poor. Boo hoo? They're both dumpster fires of governance and terrible places compared to Germany or America. NATO should define itself not by its opposition to Russia but by its constituent members' own virtues. That's what the EU was trying to do but then it let dumpsters like Poland and Hungary in lmao.

One will be a pluralistic dictatorship by necessity rather than choice due to diversity of religion and race and oppress sexual minorities because it's funny.
The other will be an ethno-nationalist ochlocracy that oppresses racial, religious, and sexual minorities because it's funny.

Very different. Yes.

Still don't understand this weird dichotomous thing, but glad to know that the average Westerner thinks that being a victim excuses all present and future moral failings.