The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

[Luxenermy]

We need to draw out this war and show Putin that he can’t just invade other countries. One way to do this would be to try to destroy Russian air superiority in the region, and launch a resistance group once Ukraine is conquered.

Nah we should start a Scramble for Russia instead

I call Archangel!

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

He wants buffer states.

That’s like saying he wants to return to Tsarist Russia because he’s conquering their former territory.

Cause he does.

Okay, sorry, it’s like saying he’s trying to return to the Kievan Rus’ because he’s invading a region that was part of it.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

The problem with Germany is that the west didn't enforce the Treaty of Versailles. Would a modern-day alternative be more enforceable?

It’s been tried in North Korea. The problem is that once you take enough, the dictator has nothing to lose and their only defense mechanism becomes military power. For North Korea, that’s not all bad, because they’re not in a position to take military action. For Russia, continuing the invasion wouldn’t be much worse than ending it and it would mean there would be no additional consequences for further imperialism.

How would they even purchase more weaponry if they don't have an economy with which to purchase it? How would they motivate locals to build it if they don't have an economy with which to pay them?

[The Lone Alliance]

It’s been tried in North Korea. The problem is that once you take enough, the dictator has nothing to lose and their only defense mechanism becomes military power. For North Korea, that’s not all bad, because they’re not in a position to take military action. For Russia, continuing the invasion wouldn’t be much worse than ending it and it would mean there would be no additional consequences for further imperialism.

How would they even purchase more weaponry if they don't have an economy with which to purchase it? How would they motivate locals to build it if they don't have an economy with which to pay them?

Because just like with North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

Even if they aren't open about it, even if the entire world sanctions Russia to the point that it's completely closed off, Russia will simply trade with China to get around it. And we can't sanction China because the entire world thought it was a brilliant idea to let China make everything.

Besides Russia doesn't really need to produce more weaponry, they're still sitting on a gigantic Cold War stockpile of equipment.

If need be they'll break out the T-34s and drive through Ukraine in the same tanks used the last time the Soviets drove Ukraine guns blazing.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

How would they even purchase more weaponry if they don't have an economy with which to purchase it? How would they motivate locals to build it if they don't have an economy with which to pay them?

Because just like North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

If China is that aligned with Russia, why didn't Trump's ties to Russia hurt him politically with the "vote Trump to stick it to China" crowd?

Even if they aren't open about it, even if the entire world sanctions Russia to the point that it's completely closed off, Russia will simply trade with China to get around it. And we can't sanction China because the entire world thought it was a brilliant idea to let China make everything.

We need food. We need shelter. We need clean water. But I doubt we need most of the things China is selling the rest of the world right now. We can do without the latest cellphone if we settle for the one we have until we find other countries to manufacture cellphones for us.

[Rio Cana]

We need to draw out this war and show Putin that he can’t just invade other countries. One way to do this would be to try to destroy Russian air superiority in the region, and launch a resistance group once Ukraine is conquered.

Its 2021, erasing entire nations off maps like was done to Poland at least twice is something that should not be tolerated. If NATO or the EU. allows at least Western Ukraine to fall, few ethnic Russians in Western Ukraine, then what good are they. Unbelievable how useless Ukraines neighbors are. I do not know what the Russians were so afraid of.

[Jerzylvania]

Because it sticks in his craw. Dude was born in October 1952. When he was ten the Cuban Missile crisis happened and the USSR backed down. Then in 1989 the Berlin Wall fell and 1991 the USSR CTE. Putin, then a dedicated KGB agent, was not yet 40. Now pushing 70, like all old men, he seeks restorative treatments. Both physically and mentally.

That, also his path to power has historically been secured on the bombing and invasion and death of other people. Putin was virtually unknown when Yeltsin gave powers to him; the apartment bombings and Chechen war changed that. Similarly Putin was beginning to be seen as a corrupt funny gerontocrat before 2014 annexation of Crimea and the war in east Ukraine. If the old ways worked, why not do it again?

As i said in my post, the old ways failed by his 40th year. Now 70 he also seeks emotional rejuvenation. I believe this invasion is all his idea and it might be nothing more than a pipe dream to some of his advisers but they're probably stuck with it and him until he's made into the next Yeltsin or Stalin. Meanwhile, the Chinese are amused.

[El Lazaro]

It’s been tried in North Korea. The problem is that once you take enough, the dictator has nothing to lose and their only defense mechanism becomes military power. For North Korea, that’s not all bad, because they’re not in a position to take military action. For Russia, continuing the invasion wouldn’t be much worse than ending it and it would mean there would be no additional consequences for further imperialism.

How would they even purchase more weaponry if they don't have an economy with which to purchase it? How would they motivate locals to build it if they don't have an economy with which to pay them?

Again, those countries don’t have efficient or advanced militaries, but raising large armies isn’t a problem for authoritarian states. The people just become poorer, but the war machine continues. And what would they criticize the government anyways? If the sanctions are necessarily permanent, then it will inevitably become a fact of life, and life in that country becomes worse.

[The Lone Alliance]

Because just like North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

If China is that aligned with Russia, why didn't Trump's ties to Russia hurt him politically with the "vote Trump to stick it to China" crowd?

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.

Even if they aren't open about it, even if the entire world sanctions Russia to the point that it's completely closed off, Russia will simply trade with China to get around it. And we can't sanction China because the entire world thought it was a brilliant idea to let China make everything.

We need food. We need shelter. We need clean water. But I doubt we need most of the things China is selling the rest of the world right now. We can do without the latest cellphone if we settle for the one we have until we find other countries to manufacture cellphones for us.

Yes "We" can, the corporate overlords though tend to pitch temper tantrums when the line goes down.

And if we sanction China the global economy will have a major "Line go down" moment, and that makes rich people cry.

And since Rich people control the government they're not going to let them do things that help make line go down on purpose.

[Latorik]

I dont believe so

There's video evidence of a t90 eating a half dozen rpgs to the front tho, syrian civil war I think?

AT weapons like that are effective when hitting the sides, back, or bottom. AT weapons are not always able to penetrate the frontal armor.

I am not certain, but I think it is fair to say that javelins are likely more effective than RPGs.

well yeah

shaped charge warhead, has defeated numerous layers of reactive armor in testing, has a top attack mode, extremely potent range, etc, etc.

[Novus America]

How would they even purchase more weaponry if they don't have an economy with which to purchase it? How would they motivate locals to build it if they don't have an economy with which to pay them?

Because just like with North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

Even if they aren't open about it, even if the entire world sanctions Russia to the point that it's completely closed off, Russia will simply trade with China to get around it. And we can't sanction China because the entire world thought it was a brilliant idea to let China make everything.

Ah but the last part is wrong. We absolutely can and MUST hit the PRC with sanctions over this.
Not as immediate as the ones on Russia but it can be done. The PRC only became such a big part of the world economy around 2000. What was done in 22 years might take 22 years to undo but we must start now.

Easy what to do it. Every month all tariffs on the PRC should increase 1%.

Nobody has a going to pay a 120% mark up on their crap. In 10 years goodbye Beijing.

Use the money from said tariffs to finance moving manufacturing to other locations, for the US North America especially.

[El Lazaro]

Because just like North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

If China is that aligned with Russia, why didn't Trump's ties to Russia hurt him politically with the "vote Trump to stick it to China" crowd?

The Trump presidency was great for China. America backs off from its military allies, America backs out of economic alliances against China, and America folds to any real pressures from China while making a big bark of it. It’s not a question of what’s going on in Xi’s head, it’s a question of what isn’t going on in the heads of the “vote Trump, stick it to China crowd.” Our position relative to China is ten times worse than it was under Obama and that’s not a compliment to Obama.

[Jerzylvania]

If China is that aligned with Russia, why didn't Trump's ties to Russia hurt him politically with the "vote Trump to stick it to China" crowd?

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.

Astute.

[Port Caverton]

Because just like with North Korea, China will look the other way and continue to provide them an economy.

Even if they aren't open about it, even if the entire world sanctions Russia to the point that it's completely closed off, Russia will simply trade with China to get around it. And we can't sanction China because the entire world thought it was a brilliant idea to let China make everything.

Ah but the last part is wrong. We absolutely can and MUST hit the PRC with sanctions over this.
Not as immediate as the ones on Russia but it can be done. The PRC only became such a big part of the world economy around 2000. What was done in 22 years might take 22 years to undo but we must start now.

Easy what to do it. Every month all tariffs on the PRC should increase 1%.

Nobody has a going to pay a 120% mark up on their crap. In 10 years goodbye Beijing.

Use the money from said tariffs to finance moving manufacturing to other locations, for the US North America especially.

We should just reinstate manchukuo instead

[San Lumen]

We need to draw out this war and show Putin that he can’t just invade other countries. One way to do this would be to try to destroy Russian air superiority in the region, and launch a resistance group once Ukraine is conquered.

Its 2021, erasing entire nations off maps like was done to Poland at least twice is something that should not be tolerated. If NATO or the EU. allows at least Western Ukraine to fall, few ethnic Russians in Western Ukraine, then what good are they. Unbelievable how useless Ukraines neighbors are. I do not know what the Russians were so afraid of.

What do you want them to do and what is it you want? Full scale conflict with Russia?

[Novus America]

If China is that aligned with Russia, why didn't Trump's ties to Russia hurt him politically with the "vote Trump to stick it to China" crowd?

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.

We need food. We need shelter. We need clean water. But I doubt we need most of the things China is selling the rest of the world right now. We can do without the latest cellphone if we settle for the one we have until we find other countries to manufacture cellphones for us.

Yes "We" can, the corporate overlords though tend to pitch temper tantrums when the line goes down.

And if we sanction China the global economy will have a major "Line go down" moment, and that makes rich people cry.

And since Rich people control the government they're not going to let them do things that help make line go down on purpose.

So let them cry.
But again it can be done without a massive crash by phasing in sanctions over time.

That what was done can be undone. It will not be quick, cheap or easy.
But it is still absolutely necessary as this proves.

Outsourcing ANYTHING to hostile, revanchist dictatorships is a stupid, stupid, pants on head stupid idea.

What is amazing is so many people thought it was a good one.

[The Lone Alliance]

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.


Yes "We" can, the corporate overlords though tend to pitch temper tantrums when the line goes down.

And if we sanction China the global economy will have a major "Line go down" moment, and that makes rich people cry.

And since Rich people control the government they're not going to let them do things that help make line go down on purpose.

So let them cry.
But again it can be done without a massive crash by phasing in sanctions over time.

That what was done can be undone. It will not be quick, cheap or easy.
But it is still absolutely necessary as this proves.

Outsourcing ANYTHING to hostile, revanchist dictatorships is a stupid, stupid, pants on head stupid idea.

What is amazing is so many people thought it was a good one.

You're preaching to the Choir, but apparently "Cheap products" meant more than anything else.

[Novus America]

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.

Astute.

But gives us an option. Tell the PRC they have to choose. If they pick Russia we keep increasing tariffs on them indefinitely. (Even if they do what we want move the goal posts, never drop them regardless).

Make the PRC pay. Then Russia is really fucked.

[Rio Cana]

Ah but the last part is wrong. We absolutely can and MUST hit the PRC with sanctions over this.
Not as immediate as the ones on Russia but it can be done. The PRC only became such a big part of the world economy around 2000. What was done in 22 years might take 22 years to undo but we must start now.

Easy what to do it. Every month all tariffs on the PRC should increase 1%.

Nobody has a going to pay a 120% mark up on their crap. In 10 years goodbye Beijing.

Use the money from said tariffs to finance moving manufacturing to other locations, for the US North America especially.

We should just reinstate manchukuo instead

I do not think you want a repeat of what happened in 1939 in that part of the world. This - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZOliJRnoA&t=0m15s

[El Lazaro]

Ah but the last part is wrong. We absolutely can and MUST hit the PRC with sanctions over this.
Not as immediate as the ones on Russia but it can be done. The PRC only became such a big part of the world economy around 2000. What was done in 22 years might take 22 years to undo but we must start now.

Easy what to do it. Every month all tariffs on the PRC should increase 1%.

Nobody has a going to pay a 120% mark up on their crap. In 10 years goodbye Beijing.

Use the money from said tariffs to finance moving manufacturing to other locations, for the US North America especially.

We should just reinstate manchukuo instead

Dead wrong, it’s time for the Taiping Heavenly Comeback. Partly because their policies were ahead of their time, and mostly because a schoolteacher having the revelation that he’s the brother of Jesus and proceeding to lead a massive rebellion to bring China under a nearly communist theocracy is conceptually hilarious.

[Ostroeuropa]

Russia is now that aligned with China because they have no choice now, in doing this action they have no choice but to turn to China.

He's cut his nation off from the West for a long period now, so love it or hate it, he needs China, that doesn't necessary means Russia likes China, but they're the only game in town willing to work with them now.


Yes "We" can, the corporate overlords though tend to pitch temper tantrums when the line goes down.

And if we sanction China the global economy will have a major "Line go down" moment, and that makes rich people cry.

And since Rich people control the government they're not going to let them do things that help make line go down on purpose.

So let them cry.
But again it can be done without a massive crash by phasing in sanctions over time.

That what was done can be undone. It will not be quick, cheap or easy.
But it is still absolutely necessary as this proves.

Outsourcing ANYTHING to hostile, revanchist dictatorships is a stupid, stupid, pants on head stupid idea.

What is amazing is so many people thought it was a good one.

Free trade between democracies with similar environmental regulations and workers rights. Fuck trading with others unless absolutely necessary.

[Novus America]

So let them cry.
But again it can be done without a massive crash by phasing in sanctions over time.

That what was done can be undone. It will not be quick, cheap or easy.
But it is still absolutely necessary as this proves.

Outsourcing ANYTHING to hostile, revanchist dictatorships is a stupid, stupid, pants on head stupid idea.

What is amazing is so many people thought it was a good one.

You're preaching to the Choir, but apparently "Cheap products" meant more than anything else.

Yes. Turns out they might have looked cheap on the sticker, but now we see the real price.
But hopefully at least some of the neoliberals are starting to see that.

It is one thing to believe a stupid, but yet disproven theory. Hopefully not all are so fanatically religious in their beliefs as to not see that what they advocated not only failed to do what they said it would, but did the exact opposite.

Alas indeed this is just preaching to the choir, but things are starting to change. Neoliberal trade is not so popular anymore.

[Malaiya Union]

That, also his path to power has historically been secured on the bombing and invasion and death of other people. Putin was virtually unknown when Yeltsin gave powers to him; the apartment bombings and Chechen war changed that. Similarly Putin was beginning to be seen as a corrupt funny gerontocrat before 2014 annexation of Crimea and the war in east Ukraine. If the old ways worked, why not do it again?

As i said in my post, the old ways failed by his 40th year. Now 70 he also seeks emotional rejuvenation. I believe this invasion is all his idea and it might be nothing more than a pipe dream to some of his advisers but they're probably stuck with it and him until he's made into the next Yeltsin or Stalin. Meanwhile, the Chinese are amused.

By "old ways" I mean "unleashing wars of aggression to boost domestic popularity". It worked for him twice.

[Novus America]

So let them cry.
But again it can be done without a massive crash by phasing in sanctions over time.

That what was done can be undone. It will not be quick, cheap or easy.
But it is still absolutely necessary as this proves.

Outsourcing ANYTHING to hostile, revanchist dictatorships is a stupid, stupid, pants on head stupid idea.

What is amazing is so many people thought it was a good one.

Free trade between democracies with similar environmental regulations and workers rights. Fuck trading with others unless absolutely necessary.

Now I can get down with this.
And this proves we must do this now.
If we do not do this soon, democracies will no longer even exist.

[Absolon-7]

Allegedly, a Ukrainian fighter pilot is putting up a fight in Kiev's airspace. More vids in the linked thread.