The Last Duel

[Infected Mushroom]

Please consider the following hypothetical based on The Last Duel:

You are a French nobleman in the 14th century. You are a seasoned soldier of many battles against the English in France and Scotland, however, you are terrible at court politics and so your liege lord favours your rival, Lord Gris.

As part of a strategic alliance and to help with your finances (and with a great deal of pressure from others), you enter into a loveless marriage for the sake of lands and titles. You were supposed to inherit a lot more land and titles as well as a high rank when your father dies but because of court politics and manoeuvring by Lord Gris, your liege lord intervenes and gives it this instead to Lord Gris… massively upsetting you and starting a feud between you and Lord Gris.

As the years go by, you feel a great deal of anger and upset over Lord Gris becoming so wealthy and powerful and successful in court despite you having fought in way more battles for France.

One day, your wife comes to you and tells you that while you were travelling to Paris, Lord Gris came to your estate and raped her. You are beyond furious and enraged. Your wife tells you that she would like to take this matter to the courts but under medieval law, has no standing unless you, the man backs her on this.

You can take it to court (your word against Lord Gris). However, the courts are corrupt and your liege lord is best pals with Lord Gris and can make the matter disappear, alternatively, you could lose. If you lose at this stage, then nothing bad will happen to either side and you have the option of calling it a day.

But if you wish to take it further, you can ask the king to grant you a duel of honour to the death against Lord Gris, invoking concepts of God and honour and truth. If you win the duel, then Lord Gris will be killed and you can get a huge part of his lands and titles, thus “winning” your feud against him. If you lose though, you will of course be dead… but also your wife will suffer the penalty for bearing “false witness against a man” and will be burned at the stake.

Your wife tells you that she would like you to press the matter in court, but if you lose (because of the liege lord’s intervention or due to the misogynistic nature of the courts) then call it a day. She does NOT want you to press for a duel because this could mean that she could end up burned at the stake and she doesn’t want that.

So as things stand, you have four choices:

Option 1: Press the matter in the corrupt court, if you lose, call it a day. (However, you and your wife’s reputations will suffer)

Option 2: Press the matter in the corrupt court, if you lose, you go to the king and demand a duel of honour. (if you lose, you will be killed and your wife burned at the stake)

Option 3: Skip the court game and just go straight to the king, demanding a duel immediately. (if you lose, you will be killed and your wife burned at the stake)

Option 4: Do nothing. Both you and your wife will be very very upset but there is no further damage to your reputations and there is no risk that either of you die in duels and burnings at the stake.

If you win the duel, then you will be regarded as a hero and you will get to take much of Lord Gris’ titles and lands. Your wife will also be “avenged” though she may hate you for risking her life against her will and for being a “selfish, glory-seeking bastard.”

As for the duel itself. It will be presided over and watched by the French high court (including a troll-faced little s*** of a king). Both of you are highborns extensively trained in all forms of combat; though you have more experience in the battlefields, in a duel like this, though you have a bit of an edge, it could swing either way. You could well die.

The duel will start on armoured horses; both of you will be dressed in armour, carry a shield, and ride at each other with lances. Squires run around to resupply you with lances when they shatter (assuming neither of you has died). Instead of losing when you fall off the horse, you lose when you die. You can also call on squires to give you additional non polearm melee weapons so theoretically it could continue once your horses are gone… swords, daggers, axes, short length maces etc

In making the decision, please consider all relevant factors and your IRL personality. Remember that in the scenario, you have seen combat before so this may alter your IRL personality just a bit.

There is no right and wrong answer, only positions to be argued. Assume that no matter what you do, your wife will support you (though maybe begrudgingly). However, I am assuming that you as a poster, will follow the law which is why I have not included illegal options.

I think I would be clouded with anger and outrage and demand the duel against Lord Gris. I may lose but for the sake of avenging my personal honour and the honour of the wife, it must be done. I would try the court first though.

[Seangoli]

This is leaving out a bit of important context; namely, the single combat was only sanctioned as a last resort to settle such disputes. In this case, the courts and parliament simply could not come to a determination on whether La Gris was guilty or innocent, as they found her testimony compelling, but equally found La Gris' evidence of innocence compelling. There wasn't really a a presumption of innocence in the modern sense, and the courts took the role of inquisitors trying to root out a final truth to the matter - and ultimately could not come to a decision. Which is why the single combat was sanctioned.

There was no pressing the matter in courts or parliament further - as they were deadlocked on whether La Gris was guilty or innocent, and simply could not come to a decision.

[Infected Mushroom]

This is leaving out a bit of important context; namely, the single combat was only sanctioned as a last resort to settle such disputes. In this case, the courts and parliament simply could not come to a determination on whether La Gris was guilty or innocent, as they found her testimony compelling, but equally found La Gris' evidence of innocence compelling. There wasn't really a a presumption of innocence in the modern sense, and the courts took the role of inquisitors trying to root out a final truth to the matter - and ultimately could not come to a decision. Which is why the single combat was sanctioned.

There was no pressing the matter in courts or parliament further - as they were deadlocked on whether La Gris was guilty or innocent, and simply could not come to a decision.

Well it doesn't have to be 100% based on the actual case or the actual movie (premise is tweaked a bit to promote player agency and a certain trade off of values).

But in such a case, how would this impact the decision-making?

[Ethel mermania]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

[Heloin]

this could mean that she could end up burned at the stake and she doesn’t want that.

No shit.

[Free Ravensburg]

Question, do we get gun?

[Ifreann]

I would simply beat La Gris, from behind, with some kind of large stick, until he was dead. And then rob him. And then when he doesn't turn up in court, grumble about how bandits have robbed me of my chance to settle the matter honourably. And then eat some garlic, hon hon hon, etc.

---

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

Ethel gets it.

---

Question, do we get gun?

Le gunne.

[The Blaatschapen]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

This.

[Free Ravensburg]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

Why does this sound like something that can happen in CK?

[The Huskar Social Union]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

Yup. You harm my wife you fucking die as soon as possible

[Ankuran]

Take it straight to the king.

I was already using this woman whom I felt nothing for; using her again, even at the risk to her own life, means nothing to me. Likewise, as a seasoned soldier, risking my own life means nothing either. I've gained a second chance to make things right; to avenge myself and regain what is rightfully mine. If I'm outraged about the assault at all, it's likely over how Lord Gris had the audacity to sully my honor as a husband in such a way and to, once again, take that which is rightfully mine. After all, I don't love this woman, and I'm a wealthy 14th century man, so my sensibilities are different. I might even hate my wife; I married her for the promise of land and power and gained only a fraction of what I was promised and she serves as a constant reminder of that.

I could try to fight it in the courts, but the courts are rigged, so I'll surely lose. I could try the courts first and then go to the king, but who's to say the king wouldn't side with the courts and deny me? The loss of reputation would doubtless undermine my request for a duel. Thus, my best chance is to try and convince the king to allow the duel.

If the duel is allowed, we both die if I lose. However, my skill is in warfare, not politicking, so I have to play to my strengths. If I win, I regain my honor, I have my vengeance, and I'm rewarded with that which should be mine. If my wife (whom I don't love) hates me, which she certainly will following the callous way I gambled her life for my own personal gain, I can send her to live in the countryside or something.

I would also wear an appropriate 14th century bascinet and not whatever this is.

[The Blaatschapen]

Please consider the following hypothetical based on The Last Duel:

You are a French nobleman in the 14th century. You are a seasoned soldier of many battles against the English in France and Scotland, however, you are terrible at court politics and so your liege lord favours your rival, Lord Gris.

As part of a strategic alliance and to help with your finances (and with a great deal of pressure from others), you enter into a loveless marriage for the sake of lands and titles. You were supposed to inherit a lot more land and titles as well as a high rank when your father dies but because of court politics and manoeuvring by Lord Gris, your liege lord intervenes and gives it this instead to Lord Gris… massively upsetting you and starting a feud between you and Lord Gris.

As the years go by, you feel a great deal of anger and upset over Lord Gris becoming so wealthy and powerful and successful in court despite you having fought in way more battles for France.

One day, your wife comes to you and tells you that while you were travelling to Paris, Lord Gris came to your estate and raped her. You are beyond furious and enraged. Your wife tells you that she would like to take this matter to the courts but under medieval law, has no standing unless you, the man backs her on this.

You can take it to court (your word against Lord Gris). However, the courts are corrupt and your liege lord is best pals with Lord Gris and can make the matter disappear, alternatively, you could lose. If you lose at this stage, then nothing bad will happen to either side and you have the option of calling it a day.

But if you wish to take it further, you can ask the king to grant you a duel of honour to the death against Lord Gris, invoking concepts of God and honour and truth. If you win the duel, then Lord Gris will be killed and you can get a huge part of his lands and titles, thus “winning” your feud against him. If you lose though, you will of course be dead… but also your wife will suffer the penalty for bearing “false witness against a man” and will be burned at the stake.

Your wife tells you that she would like you to press the matter in court, but if you lose (because of the liege lord’s intervention or due to the misogynistic nature of the courts) then call it a day. She does NOT want you to press for a duel because this could mean that she could end up burned at the stake and she doesn’t want that.

So as things stand, you have four choices:

Option 1: Press the matter in the corrupt court, if you lose, call it a day. (However, you and your wife’s reputations will suffer)

Option 2: Press the matter in the corrupt court, if you lose, you go to the king and demand a duel of honour. (if you lose, you will be killed and your wife burned at the stake)

Option 3: Skip the court game and just go straight to the king, demanding a duel immediately. (if you lose, you will be killed and your wife burned at the stake)

Option 4: Do nothing. Both you and your wife will be very very upset but there is no further damage to your reputations and there is no risk that either of you die in duels and burnings at the stake.

If you win the duel, then you will be regarded as a hero and you will get to take much of Lord Gris’ titles and lands. Your wife will also be “avenged” though she may hate you for risking her life against her will and for being a “selfish, glory-seeking bastard.”

As for the duel itself. It will be presided over and watched by the French high court (including a troll-faced little s*** of a king). Both of you are highborns extensively trained in all forms of combat; though you have more experience in the battlefields, in a duel like this, though you have a bit of an edge, it could swing either way. You could well die.

The duel will start on armoured horses; both of you will be dressed in armour, carry a shield, and ride at each other with lances. Squires run around to resupply you with lances when they shatter (assuming neither of you has died). Instead of losing when you fall off the horse, you lose when you die. You can also call on squires to give you additional non polearm melee weapons so theoretically it could continue once your horses are gone… swords, daggers, axes, short length maces etc

In making the decision, please consider all relevant factors and your IRL personality. Remember that in the scenario, you have seen combat before so this may alter your IRL personality just a bit.

There is no right and wrong answer, only positions to be argued. Assume that no matter what you do, your wife will support you (though maybe begrudgingly). However, I am assuming that you as a poster, will follow the law which is why I have not included illegal options.

I think I would be clouded with anger and outrage and demand the duel against Lord Gris. I may lose but for the sake of avenging my personal honour and the honour of the wife, it must be done. I would try the court first though.

I've always known France to be such a corrupt country

[The Free Joy State]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

This seems like a fair choice.

An "other" option is sorely needed.

[Kerwa]

Gris sounds like a douche. I would bribe his servants to slip something into his food causing him to suffer explosive diarrhea in the day of the duel. He would the either forfeit or I coulD easily kill him while he is shitting his horse. In both cases I win. Yay me!

[Chan Island]

You have forgotten a giant weapon that a medieval lord would very certainly contemplate- war.

Based on what you've described, the average feudal lord with the land and titles we have would have tried to fight a war against Lord Gris thrice over. First for taking your inheritance, second for thinking he can disrespect such a storied veteran of war like this character, and third for "soiling the family name" (or some other comparable term).

Let's see how good Lord Gris' duelling skills are against 500 Swiss Mercenaries and a couple thousand peasant levees.

[Ankuran]

You have forgotten a giant weapon that a medieval lord would very certainly contemplate- war.

Based on what you've described, the average feudal lord with the land and titles we have would have tried to fight a war against Lord Gris thrice over. First for taking your inheritance, second for thinking he can disrespect such a storied veteran of war like this character, and third for "soiling the family name" (or some other comparable term).

Let's see how good Lord Gris' duelling skills are against 500 Swiss Mercenaries and a couple thousand peasant levees.

With your liege being buddy-buddy with Gris? Good luck.

[Chan Island]

You have forgotten a giant weapon that a medieval lord would very certainly contemplate- war.

Based on what you've described, the average feudal lord with the land and titles we have would have tried to fight a war against Lord Gris thrice over. First for taking your inheritance, second for thinking he can disrespect such a storied veteran of war like this character, and third for "soiling the family name" (or some other comparable term).

Let's see how good Lord Gris' duelling skills are against 500 Swiss Mercenaries and a couple thousand peasant levees.

With your liege being buddy-buddy with Gris? Good luck.

You're looking at it from a modern perspective, where you weigh up the odds and decide that going to die like that is some pointless waste of life. This fails to take into account the way a French feudal lord in the 14th century would see things.

1) Ironically, IM's own obsessions on 'nobility' and 'honour' are missing from the analysis. Having your wife be raped would be at the time seen as a giant slight on your honour, and restoring that honour on the battlefield was not only seen as legitimate, but even common. Even death at the hands of the king would be and was seen as a good death if it's for such a cause as avenging your wife.

2) Our character is a veteran of the wars against the English. This person will definitely know the importance of building alliances, raising armies, hiring mercenaries etc. We are given very little information on what lands we do hold and what the liege and Gris have- it may not be so obvious that we would lose.

3) The English during the Wars of the Roses had a saying about the king- that they are like a fire. If you are too far from them, you will freeze- but if you are too close, you burn with them. Lord Gris is very blatantly far too close to the liege lord for this to last- and excusing something like literally raping the wife of a noble man is exactly the sort of thing that would piss off the entire coalition of minor nobles that the liege lord needs to keep on his side. If our character is being treated this terribly, it is not a stretch to imagine that other lords are also being mistreated.

And even if they aren't, Lord Gris is evidently holding a lot of lands and is in bad repute. You could promise some of those lands to your potential allies.

...........

Is it stupid by modern standards? 1000%. But this isn't a modern scenario. This is a medieval one. A hell of a lot has changed in 700 years. This is one of them. Our character would 100% at the very least be seriously considering going to war.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Why not go to war with Lord Gris? By raping my wife he has brought great dishonor on my family, and the only way I can see this restored is on a battlefield. He may bitch about dueling and shit like this, but in the end what he can put against several hundred mercenaries and some of my lieges? Given him lacking actual combat experience this will end pretty smoothly and swiftly, with his head on a stick or something.

[Kaczynskisatva]

Assassinating the guy would add risk to you, and you would not gain contested lands, and this would not un-rape your wife. All risk, no reward, and anyone who chose this option should not be trusted with serious adult decisions. Sorry.

The entire "rape" angle is pointless in this scenario. A woman cannot be unraped. The objective question is, would I fight this guy for land.

Depends on my lands, my family, and his lands. If I have an heir ready to take over my lands if I die, a competent adult son or a landless younger brother who is marriageable or married, then sure, there's no reason not to. If I win, the family wins, if I lose, the family breaks even.

If, on the other hand, my pre-death hereditary affairs are not in order, then this would be a major risk, and probably only justified if I am unlikely to ever be able to get those affairs in order without getting more land.

Never give in to the temptation of hating your enemies - just measure if it's a good time to try to kill them.

And, remember, you don't have time to hate them all. Everyone who isn't family, is your enemy - it's just a question of how you're dealing with them.

[Vikanias]

Duel him, I’ve won more fights, and I will give him smallpox and since I’m the main character in this story and I live becuase plot.

Let’s get serious though, with all these titles ap this guy must have embellished himself and probably is like Henry VIII, I win.

[HISPIDA]

court cases aren't gonna fucking work lmao
since i'm more experienced and much more determined than him i'll just fucking kill him. serves him right for raping my wife

[Thermodolia]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

This. The guy dies either by choking on some poisoned wine or dies on a hunting trip

[HISPIDA]

He raped my wife?

He doesn't get to die on a field of honor, I assassinate the SOB.

This. The guy dies either by choking on some poisoned wine or dies on a hunting trip

i'd rather beat the fucker to death with my bare hands in full honesty

[Thermodolia]

With your liege being buddy-buddy with Gris? Good luck.

You're looking at it from a modern perspective, where you weigh up the odds and decide that going to die like that is some pointless waste of life. This fails to take into account the way a French feudal lord in the 14th century would see things.

1) Ironically, IM's own obsessions on 'nobility' and 'honour' are missing from the analysis. Having your wife be raped would be at the time seen as a giant slight on your honour, and restoring that honour on the battlefield was not only seen as legitimate, but even common. Even death at the hands of the king would be and was seen as a good death if it's for such a cause as avenging your wife.

2) Our character is a veteran of the wars against the English. This person will definitely know the importance of building alliances, raising armies, hiring mercenaries etc. We are given very little information on what lands we do hold and what the liege and Gris have- it may not be so obvious that we would lose.

3) The English during the Wars of the Roses had a saying about the king- that they are like a fire. If you are too far from them, you will freeze- but if you are too close, you burn with them. Lord Gris is very blatantly far too close to the liege lord for this to last- and excusing something like literally raping the wife of a noble man is exactly the sort of thing that would piss off the entire coalition of minor nobles that the liege lord needs to keep on his side. If our character is being treated this terribly, it is not a stretch to imagine that other lords are also being mistreated.

And even if they aren't, Lord Gris is evidently holding a lot of lands and is in bad repute. You could promise some of those lands to your potential allies.

...........

Is it stupid by modern standards? 1000%. But this isn't a modern scenario. This is a medieval one. A hell of a lot has changed in 700 years. This is one of them. Our character would 100% at the very least be seriously considering going to war.

Good point. I’d definitely give land to some lesser nobles in exchange for their aid against Lord Gris. And hopefully the king isn’t stupid enough to join with Lord Gris and if he is well his daughter will be forced to marry my son thus ensuring that my bloodline follows the Royal bloodline.

Also if the king kicks the bucket during the war all but one of his male heirs will all simultaneously die in a hunting accident. And for that one male heir ill position myself to become Lord Regent and eventually arrange for him to marry my daughter. Further ensuring that whoever next rules the kingdom will be of my bloodline

[Ankuran]

You're looking at it from a modern perspective, where you weigh up the odds and decide that going to die like that is some pointless waste of life. This fails to take into account the way a French feudal lord in the 14th century would see things.

[snip]

and excusing something like literally raping the wife of a noble man is exactly the sort of thing that would piss off the entire coalition of minor nobles that the liege lord needs to keep on his side. If our character is being treated this terribly, it is not a stretch to imagine that other lords are also being mistreated.

Alright, let's talk about "modern views" then. This is a time period where rape is nothing. Codes of honor were put in place because, among other reasons, knights raped women all the time and needed to be reigned in. The punishment for being found guilty of rape was based largely on public opinion. Women could not represent themselves in court even for matters that didn't concern their husbands. If a woman accused a man of rape and he was found not guilty (or "innocent," to use more period-friendly language) or the charges were found to have no basis, the woman was arrested and could face, you guessed it, being burnt alive (or other, lesser punishments that almost certainly involved further assaults). That an accusation of rape would serve to alienate a noble's allies in these times is a very modern viewpoint. Now a "guilty" verdict? Yeah, that could do some damage, depending on the specific people involved. An accusation? The accuser is more likely to see punitive action than the accused even if she isn't poor.