Can the Capitol Hill rioters be charged with felony murder?

[GuessTheAltAccount]

98 years ago today, a bunch of traitors tried to overthrow the Weimar Republic, which then spared their lives instead of executing them for treason. The result? Those whose lives were spared went on to create Nazi Germany, all because they weren't executed.

Now we have something similar, in the Capitol Hill riots. People are squabbling over how many years they're going to be sent to prison... whatever. Unless it's life without eligibility for parole are pardon, it's not enough. Every prison sentence is a life sentence, if not for the mental effects of the violence among each other and the guards in there, then for the effects of that criminal record on any future eligibility for welfare or employment... at least, employment outside of future attempted coups. We see burglars returning to burglary, and drug dealers returning to drug dealing, so it stands to reason traitors would return to treason. So if even the ones who get life could get pardoned, and the ones who don't get let out, that means a bunch of traitors with nothing to lose walking the streets. There has to be a way to prevent this.

And then I thought of this.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... murder.htm

So according to this, when a group commits a felony and someone dies; even if it's an accomplice; they're all guilty of felony murder. Does storming the capitol not constitute a felony? If it does, why aren't these rioters all being charged with felony murder of those who died that day and getting sentenced to death?

[Antipatros]

98 years ago today, a bunch of traitors tried to overthrow the Weimar Republic, which then spared their lives instead of executing them for treason. The result? Those whose lives were spared went on to create Nazi Germany, all because they weren't executed.

Now we have something similar, in the Capitol Hill riots. People are squabbling over how many years they're going to be sent to prison... whatever. Unless it's life without eligibility for parole are pardon, it's not enough. Every prison sentence is a life sentence, if not for the mental effects of the violence among each other and the guards in there, then for the effects of that criminal record on any future eligibility for welfare or employment... at least, employment outside of future attempted coups. We see burglars returning to burglary, and drug dealers returning to drug dealing, so it stands to reason traitors would return to treason. So if even the ones who get life could get pardoned, and the ones who don't get let out, that means a bunch of traitors with nothing to lose walking the streets. There has to be a way to prevent this.

And then I thought of this.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... murder.htm

So according to this, when a group commits a felony and someone dies; even if it's an accomplice; they're all guilty of felony murder. Does storming the capitol not constitute a felony? If it does, why aren't these rioters all being charged with felony murder of those who died that day and getting sentenced to death?

I think that these rioters should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That being said, IANAL, so I'm not really sure what all of the various doctrines/tests for felony murder are.

These two cases, if I'm understanding them right, would probably prevent the death penalty from being imposed in many of these cases.

[Hispida]

they should be charged with treason and conspiracy against the US

[The V I C]

All I know is i love the thought of some smug capitol riot defendant who thought "I'm only getting probation for this. My blonde hair and white skin will save me," being told that the sentence is life without any possibility of parole. It'd be a hell of a lot more just than some of the sentences these folks are getting, sentences they should be counting their blessings for since in another country, anyone storming the capitol would only escape the building alive by the grace of God if the Coup failed.

[Page]

I'm not for death or life sentences for people storming the Capitol because I'm not against storming the Capitol. I think the Jan 6 crowd were very stupid people who stormed the Capitol for a very stupid reason. Were it though they planned to occupy the building to demand universal health care or paid maternity leave or the abolition of ICE, I certainly wouldn't condemn that. There would certainly be many laudable hypothetical situations of storming federal property, such as to stop the shipment of weapons to a genocidal regime or to liberate the human trafficking victims of ICE.

Similarly, as you have referenced the Beer Hall Putsch, were it German communists instead of nazis doing it, the whole thing would have been really fucking cool.

[Antipatros]

According to this person (a law professor), getting charged with felony murder might be possible for anyone involved in the trampling death of Rosanne Boyland. She also mentions Sicknick, but DC medical examiner has since found that Sicknick's death was natural. According to her, felony murder charges are less likely in the case of Ashli Babbitt.

[Ifreann]

DC does have a felony murder rule, the applicable statute being 18 USC § 1111.

Every murder [...] committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children [...] is murder in the first degree.

In DC, burglary is the crime of entering a building with intent to commit a crime inside. So, if a murder was committed in the perpetration of a burglary, all the accomplices in that burglary are guilty of murder in the first degree.

Ashli Babbitt was shot by law enforcement. Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick's death has been determined to have been the result of multiple strokes. Roseanne Boyland's death has been ruled an accidental drug overdose. Kevin Greeson and Benjamin Phillips died naturally of heart problems. Capitol Police Officer Howard Liebengood and DC Metro Police Officers Jeffrey Smith, Kyle DeFreytag, and Gunther Hashida all died by suicide in weeks and months that followed.

While one might consider some or all of these deaths to be the moral responsibility of the rioters and those who incited them, my understanding is that the DC felony murder rule is only applicable when there is a murder, and none of those deaths were murders. So that's a no, the Capitol Hill rioters can't be charged with felony murder, to the best of my knowledge.

[Utquiagvik]

they should be charged with at least manslaughter.

[CoraSpia]

I'm not for death or life sentences for people storming the Capitol because I'm not against storming the Capitol. I think the Jan 6 crowd were very stupid people who stormed the Capitol for a very stupid reason. Were it though they planned to occupy the building to demand universal health care or paid maternity leave or the abolition of ICE, I certainly wouldn't condemn that. There would certainly be many laudable hypothetical situations of storming federal property, such as to stop the shipment of weapons to a genocidal regime or to liberate the human trafficking victims of ICE.

Similarly, as you have referenced the Beer Hall Putsch, were it German communists instead of nazis doing it, the whole thing would have been really fucking cool.

The issue is that the law can't respect a difference between 'reasons people like' and 'reasons people don't like.' That's why I'm not in favour of death or life sentences for this, but equally I wouldn't be in favour of it for environmental protesters doing the same thing, armed communists, actual neo-nazis or whatever other group (nobody try the consistency test on this, it goes all the way) that you can think of.

[Haganham]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

[Christoffeland]

Isn't this quite literally the Definition of Seditious Conspiracy?

[GuessTheAltAccount]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

BLM was a movement, not a specific co-ordinated attack on a specific target.

So consensus in this thread is there's a case for it in the trampling death, but not a case for it in any of the other deaths involved. If that's the case, how come they haven't pursued it in the trampling death yet?

. . .

Oh, and Page, the ends do not justify the means.

[Antipatros]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

BLM was a movement, not a specific co-ordinated attack on a specific target.

So consensus in this thread is there's a case for it in the trampling death, but not a case for it in any of the other deaths involved. If that's the case, how come they haven't pursued it in the trampling death yet?

. . .

Oh, and Page, the ends do not justify the means.

Apparently (and I was not aware of this until Ifreann brought it up, so cheers to him), that particular death has been ruled as a drug overdose.

Capitol Rioter Rosanne Boyland Died From Drug Overdose, Not Trampling: M.E.

[Hemakral]

I'm not for death or life sentences for people storming the Capitol because I'm not against storming the Capitol. I think the Jan 6 crowd were very stupid people who stormed the Capitol for a very stupid reason. Were it though they planned to occupy the building to demand universal health care or paid maternity leave or the abolition of ICE, I certainly wouldn't condemn that. There would certainly be many laudable hypothetical situations of storming federal property, such as to stop the shipment of weapons to a genocidal regime or to liberate the human trafficking victims of ICE.

Similarly, as you have referenced the Beer Hall Putsch, were it German communists instead of nazis doing it, the whole thing would have been really fucking cool.

Imagine if a bunch of pregnant ladies stormed the capitol for maternity leave
They'd be unstoppable!

[Haganham]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

BLM was a movement,

can you cite the statute that defines this?

[Christoffeland]

BLM was a movement,

can you cite the statute that defines this?

The fact that it was an Unorganized, Unlead group of People that everyone grouped together as one thing because they all thought Racism wasn't good.

[Ifreann]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

US law doesn't operate on the logic of "Both sides".

---

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

BLM was a movement, not a specific co-ordinated attack on a specific target.

So consensus in this thread is there's a case for it in the trampling death, but not a case for it in any of the other deaths involved. If that's the case, how come they haven't pursued it in the trampling death yet?

Because that death has been ruled a drug overdose.

[Haganham]

By the same reasoning literally everyone involved in BLM could be charged with the same, so lets not.

US law doesn't operate on the logic of "Both sides".

Actually "lets not set that precedent" is the basis of a lot of decisions in US politics.

can you cite the statute that defines this?

The fact that it was an Unorganized, Unlead group of People that everyone grouped together as one thing because they all thought Racism wasn't good.

and that is distinct from the Jan 6th attacks how?

[Ifreann]

US law doesn't operate on the logic of "Both sides".

Actually "lets not set that precedent" is the basis of a lot of decisions in US politics.

I'm aware that Republican politicians would want to try and retaliate against BLM if there was a successful use of the felony murder rule against Capitol Hill rioters, but that alone does not make a thing legally possible.

[Haganham]

Actually "lets not set that precedent" is the basis of a lot of decisions in US politics.

I'm aware that Republican politicians would want to try and retaliate against BLM if there was a successful use of the felony murder rule against Capitol Hill rioters, but that alone does not make a thing legally possible.

It is if we establish the precedent that it is.

[Salus Maior]

As a whole? Probably not.

[CoraSpia]

Actually "lets not set that precedent" is the basis of a lot of decisions in US politics.

I'm aware that Republican politicians would want to try and retaliate against BLM if there was a successful use of the felony murder rule against Capitol Hill rioters, but that alone does not make a thing legally possible.

In a country where trial judges enjoy very limited scrutiny, and juries are not the most objective?
It really does. It's a dangerous can of worms to open, put your tin opener away.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

I'm aware that Republican politicians would want to try and retaliate against BLM if there was a successful use of the felony murder rule against Capitol Hill rioters, but that alone does not make a thing legally possible.

In a country where trial judges enjoy very limited scrutiny, and juries are not the most objective?
It really does. It's a dangerous can of worms to open, put your tin opener away.

Didn't Ifreaan already argue that the drug overdose makes this case unprosecutable, though? Pursuing this was my idea, not his.

In any case, in light of the aforementioned reasoning, I retract it.

[Ifreann]

I'm aware that Republican politicians would want to try and retaliate against BLM if there was a successful use of the felony murder rule against Capitol Hill rioters, but that alone does not make a thing legally possible.

It is if we establish the precedent that it is.

No it isn't. As I've gone over above, the Capitol Hill rioters can't be charged with murder because nobody was murdered, but supposing they were, if we imagine that Brian Sicknick was actually beaten to death, this does not establish a precedent that can be used against BLM. For one, felony murder rules are established law, not some novel legal practice. A thing has to be unprecedented to establish a precedent, and felony murder convictions are not unprecedented.

Also, what death would BLM even be charged in relation to? The specifics vary in different jurisdictions, but at the very least someone does have to die for the felony murder rule to be applicable.

Further, if there is a death caused by some members of BLM in the course of a crime that could trigger the relevant felony murder rule, that would apply to the other perpetrators of that crime, exactly the same as the felony murder rule would be applied to the Capitol Hill rioters, if it could be applied. Again, if we imagine that Sicknick had been murdered then it wouldn't be the case that everyone in DC on Trump's side, so to speak, could be hit with a murder charge. Only the people who were perpetrating burglary along with the imagined murderer. Similarly, the felony murder rule could not somehow be wielded against the whole Black Lives Matter movement or against any organisation bearing that name. Only against the people who were doing a felony while there was a murder, specifics varying by jurisdiction.

[Deacarsia]

No, the Capitol Hill protestors cannot and should not be charged with any crime beyond simple trespass, if even that.

If anyone ought to be charged with murder, it should be the Capitol police officer who murdered Ashley Babbit.