American Politics VIII: Dancin' with Manchin

[San Lumen]

Bryan winning means no Teddy Roosevelt or Taft or Wilson.

Okay, and?

How do you know how that would affect america in the long term?

Roosevelt created the national park system for starters.

[Hispida]

You don't know that for certain. And you have no idea how their presidential careers would affect the US in the long term. As to your claim that "everyone has to vote," I want you to explain to me, after Biden's cowardly response to the war in Israel in which Israel blew up Palestinian civilians, attacked hospitals and leveled news buildings, why I should hypothetically vote for Biden over trump and not just vote third party or stay home. This is hypothetical because I'm not a US citizen, but if I could, I still wouldn't vote for anyone who's a friend of the Israeli state.

Bryan winning means no Teddy Roosevelt or Taft or Wilson.

[The V I C]

Okay, and?

How do you know how that would affect america in the long term?

Roosevelt created the national park system for starters.

How do you know he doesn't run later in history if this happens? How do you know someone else doesn't make the national parks?

[Kerwa]

Roosevelt created the national park system for starters.

How do you know he doesn't run later in history if this happens? How do you know someone else doesn't make the national parks?

True. Canada, NZ and Australia all had national parks before Roosevelt. It wasn’t a novel idea.

[San Lumen]

Roosevelt created the national park system for starters.

How do you know he doesn't run later in history if this happens? How do you know someone else doesn't make the national parks?

Roosevelt was made the VP candidate in 1900 in an attempt to make him irrelevant so he couldn’t get the nomination in 1904.

[Lady Victory]

I'm conflicted because on one hand fuck Taft and Wilson, but on the other Teddy was one of our better presidents.

[Hispida]

I'm conflicted because on one hand fuck Taft and Wilson, but on the other Teddy was one of our better presidents.

A soul... for a soul.

[San Lumen]

I'm conflicted because on one hand fuck Taft and Wilson, but on the other Teddy was one of our better presidents.

Taft was Roosevelt’s Secretary of War and his hand picked successor. Roosevelt running third party in 1912 after being denied the Republican nomination split the vote.

Taft however was quite unpopular so it’s possible Wilson wins without Roosevelt on the ballot.

[Eahland]

I'm conflicted because on one hand fuck Taft and Wilson, but on the other Teddy was one of our better presidents.

Taft was Roosevelt’s Secretary of War and his hand picked successor. Roosevelt running third party in 1912 after being denied the Republican nomination split the vote.

Taft however was quite unpopular so it’s possible Wilson wins without Roosevelt on the ballot.

Roosevelt ran third-party in 1912 specifically because he disapproved of how conservative Taft had become.

[San Lumen]

Taft was Roosevelt’s Secretary of War and his hand picked successor. Roosevelt running third party in 1912 after being denied the Republican nomination split the vote.

Taft however was quite unpopular so it’s possible Wilson wins without Roosevelt on the ballot.

Roosevelt ran third-party in 1912 specifically because he disapproved of how conservative Taft had become.

Yes but he attempted to wrest the Republican nomination from Taft and when he didn’t get it staged a walkout and formed the Progressive Party.

[Maricarland]

I am wondering something. If a State, like Maryland, were to grant citizenship to undocumented immigrants who reside within that State, would them holding State citizenship also grant them U.S. citizenship and therefore give them the right to stay in the U.S. If so, why has not of the immigrant friendly States done this already to basically act as a backdoor to getting U.S. citizenship?

[American Legionaries]

I am wondering something. If a State, like Maryland, were to grant citizenship to undocumented immigrants who reside within that State, would them holding State citizenship also grant them U.S. citizenship and therefore give them the right to stay in the U.S. If so, why has not of the immigrant friendly States done this already to basically act as a backdoor to getting U.S. citizenship?

State citizenship isn't a thing.

[American Legionaries]

Roosevelt ran third-party in 1912 specifically because he disapproved of how conservative Taft had become.

Yes but he attempted to wrest the Republican nomination from Taft and when he didn’t get it staged a walkout and formed the Progressive Party.

The Progressive party ought to be a thing. Roosevelt was a good guy, and his offshoot of the Republicans should have survived.

[Maricarland]

Yes but he attempted to wrest the Republican nomination from Taft and when he didn’t get it staged a walkout and formed the Progressive Party.

The Progressive party ought to be a thing. Roosevelt was a good guy, and his offshoot of the Republicans should have survived.

I pretty much agree.

[The Jamesian Republic]

The Progressive party ought to be a thing. Roosevelt was a good guy, and his offshoot of the Republicans should have survived.

I pretty much agree.

Yes we need more parties.

[Kowani]

We got a programming change, and a big vote
House to vote on BIF and a rule for consideration of BBB

Currently debating Rule on BBB

point of order, debate paused, vote delayed, everyone's retreating to try and count votes, clyburn's busy whipping votes (deadline for the whip count is 17:20 EST), progressives won't vote for BIF without BBB, conservative dems won't vote for BBB without a CBO score, BIF vote still scheduled for later today but who knows

[Eahland]

Roosevelt ran third-party in 1912 specifically because he disapproved of how conservative Taft had become.

Yes but he attempted to wrest the Republican nomination from Taft and when he didn’t get it staged a walkout and formed the Progressive Party.

I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, then.

The Progressive party ought to be a thing. Roosevelt was a good guy, and his offshoot of the Republicans should have survived.

The Progressive Party is a thing. They're a viable third, and sometimes even second, party in Vermont. They've held the Burlington mayor's office for most of the last 30 years.

Yes we need more parties.

We need electoral reform first. The American electoral system does not function correctly with more than two candidates. (It doesn't really work right even with only two, but it breaks down completely with three or more.) The Progressives in Vermont are viable only because the Republicans have so marginalized themselves here that for many offices you can split the lefty vote and still have a lefty candidate win.

[Maricarland]

For those who argue that we should not do gradual reforms and must focus on a revolution (which I hope would be peaceful), for those who believe we cannot do both electoralism and non-electoral politics, to those who disagree on how we achieve socialism or whether we should have market socialism or non-market socialism, and all the other quibbling about tactics on the left, I offer:



LEFTIST UNITY PLEASE

[American Legionaries]

Yes but he attempted to wrest the Republican nomination from Taft and when he didn’t get it staged a walkout and formed the Progressive Party.

I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, then.

The Progressive party ought to be a thing. Roosevelt was a good guy, and his offshoot of the Republicans should have survived.

The Progressive Party is a thing. They're a viable third, and sometimes even second, party in Vermont. They've held the Burlington mayor's office for most of the last 30 years.

Yes we need more parties.

We need electoral reform first. The American electoral system does not function correctly with more than two candidates. (It doesn't really work right even with only two, but it breaks down completely with three or more.) The Progressives in Vermont are viable only because the Republicans have so marginalized themselves here that for many offices you can split the lefty vote and still have a lefty candidate win.

The Vermont Progressive Party isn't the same thing as Roosevelt's Progressive Party.

And we don't necessarily need more parties, perhaps just different ones.

[The Jamesian Republic]

For those who argue that we should not do gradual reforms and must focus on a revolution (which I hope would be peaceful), for those who believe we cannot do both electoralism and non-electoral politics, to those who disagree on how we achieve socialism or whether we should have market socialism or non-market socialism, and all the other quibbling about tactics on the left, I offer:

(Image)

LEFTIST UNITY PLEASE

Yes!

[Port Caverton]

For those who argue that we should not do gradual reforms and must focus on a revolution (which I hope would be peaceful), for those who believe we cannot do both electoralism and non-electoral politics, to those who disagree on how we achieve socialism or whether we should have market socialism or non-market socialism, and all the other quibbling about tactics on the left, I offer:

(Image)

LEFTIST UNITY PLEASE

[Kowani]

Kyrsten Sinema: The Senator for Big Scam

They've been derided as spruced up pyramid schemes: Companies that incentivize their own customers to become salespeople for products. Now, these so-called multilevel marketing businesses are flexing their political muscle. And they're turning to one lawmaker in particular to protect their agenda: Sen. Kyrsten Sinema.

The political action committee associated with Alticor, the parent entity of the health, home and beauty company Amway, gave $2,500 to the Arizona Democrat in late June, as did the PAC for Isagenix, an Arizona-based business that sells nutrition, wellness and personal care products. Nu Skin Enterprises, another personal care and beauty company, gave $2,500 that month, as did USANA Health Sciences, which sells similar products. In April, Richard Raymond Rogers, the executive chair of Mary Kay, a Texas-based cosmetics company, gave $2,500 to Sinema. Herbalife, which also sells nutritional supplements, gave $2,500 in July. All are affiliated with the Direct Selling Association, a trade group that promotes multilevel marketing. The donations don’t track usual political alliances. Alticor is owned by the DeVos family, one of the biggest funders of Republicans and conservative causes. And, on some occasions, they appear to be rare forays into national politics for the donor entities. Sinema is the only federal lawmaker that the Isagenix and Nu Skin PACs have given to this year. Utah-based USANA Health Sciences has only given to home state Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah), home state Rep. Burgess Owens (R-Utah), a Republican PAC and Sinema. When asked about the industry’s support nearly exclusively for Sinema, a spokesperson for the Direct Selling Association offered little explanation: “Contributions to candidates from DSA’s political action committee are based on a variety of factors.”

Sinema does have a personal connection to the industry: Her own mother was a direct seller. But the bigger incentive for multilevel marketers to give to Sinema appears to be her position on labor organizing. The companies face an existential threat from the pro-union Protecting the Right to Organize (PRO) Act, which would make it more difficult to classify workers as independent contractors. According to one industry source, the bill has become the driving issue since Democrats took control of the White House and both chambers of Congress. And Sinema is one of — if not the only — Democratic allies in the Senate. Unions have pushed for some of the Democrats' priorities in the PRO Act to be inserted into the reconciliation bill, but for the most part, the marquee labor bill has languished before Congress since passing the House in March. Sinema’s fellow Senate moderate, Joe Manchin (D-W.V.), has already signed onto the legislation, leaving just three Senate Democrats who have yet to co-sponsor the bill — Sinema, Mark Warner of Virginia and Mark Kelly of Arizona. Warner signaled his support for the PRO Act at a rally in Virginia on Monday. And Kelly has said he supports the bill broadly speaking, though he wants to see some changes, including the provision related to independent contractors, according to a Democratic Hill aide.

That leaves Sinema as the chamber’s chief Democratic opponent to the bill (Sinema’s office did not respond to a request for comment for this story). And as with other issues, including drug pricing and tax policy, her willingness to buck her party’s mainstream has earned her support from a variety of private industries. Sinema raised more than $1.1 million in the third quarter, with significant giving from the finance and pharmaceutical industries.

Multilevel-marketing is hardly a Washington, D.C., player on the scale of the pharmaceutical industry. Known for their “Hey girl” direct messages and often sold as get rich quick schemes, its companies lean on participants to sell their products through person-to-person sales. Those participants often receive commissions based on recruiting new distributors. But according to the Federal Trade Commission, most who join make little or no profits; some even lose money.

[...]
According to a recent six-month report on its government affairs, the Direct Selling Association has held 55 meetings with congressional offices, and it is working with allies to develop a language to protect direct sellers in the PRO Act.

In May 2020, not long after the onset of the coronavirus, the Direct Selling Association and one its member companies, Isagenix, hosted Sinema for a virtual town hall. According to the association, she assured the industry that she would help them “succeed through these difficult circumstances.” On its website, the association lists Sinema among its contribution recipients during the 2020-2021 period, saying she is “One of the few Democratic Senators who supports direct selling.”

[Shrillland]

Here's some of that rampant fraud the Republicans like to warn us about....from Youngkin's own underage son....who tried to vote twice.....and not even at his home's polling station

[The Black Forrest]

Here's some of that rampant fraud the Republicans like to warn us about....from Youngkin's own underage son....who tried to vote twice.....and not even at his home's polling station

Ehhhhmmmmmwellllll?

An idiot teenager thought he was cool/funny/whatever?…..

I am not going to hold the republicans on that one. Idiot teenagers happen regardless of politics.

Now if there was a coordinated effort……

[Shrillland]

Here's some of that rampant fraud the Republicans like to warn us about....from Youngkin's own underage son....who tried to vote twice.....and not even at his home's polling station

Ehhhhmmmmmwellllll?

An idiot teenager thought he was cool/funny/whatever?…..

I am not going to hold the republicans on that one. Idiot teenagers happen regardless of politics.

Now if there was a coordinated effort……

True enough. I was just putting it up there as another example of the irony of the whole situation.