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Pushing renewables now could save trillions in health costs

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Neu California
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Pushing renewables now could save trillions in health costs

Postby Neu California » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:14 pm

Ars Technica wrote:The use of fossil fuels comes with a wide variety of externalized costs. The big focus tends to be on the carbon dioxide fossil fuel produces and its role in warming the climate. But fossil fuels also cause environmental damage when they're extracted, and burning them produces particulate pollution and ozone. Those substances have downstream effects on human health and agriculture. If all of these costs were included in the price of fossil fuels, then alternatives would be far more competitive.

There have been numerous attempts over the years to quantify these externalized costs. Some look at the issue from a purely economic perspective, and others look at efforts to inform policy. These efforts tend to be based on our best understanding at the time, however; as our knowledge improves, the figures can be worth revisiting. That's exactly what's been done by a team of researchers at Columbia and Duke Universities who use current climate scenarios and updated health data.

The researchers' results say that, even if you ignore the climate benefits, moving away from fossil fuels rapidly would lead to benefits that, in the US alone, can add up to trillions of dollars before the century is over.

New perspectives
The big changes in the work involve a shift over to the Coupled Model Intercomparison Projects (CMIP) version six of its models, which was accompanied by new emissions scenarios. These scenarios include everything from emissions growing at their prepandemic pace through to near the end of the century down to a net-zero by 2050 scenario. The ones that are considered most often are two high-end scenarios (growth to 2080 and a slower pace of growth to the end of the century), and two that are consistent with limiting warming to either 1.5º or 2.0º C.

These scenarios obviously produce impacts via climate change. But the researchers also converted them into emissions of other pollutants, such as particulates and nitrogen oxides, based on the current US energy mix. Those pollutants have a variety of effects on the US population, such as exacerbating asthma and raising the risk of heart problems. Ozone, which is produced by some of the combustion products, can also damage crops.

A second major change compared to past analyses was the consideration of medical impacts. The authors state that we now have an "improved understanding of the human health impacts of exposure to both heat and air pollution." This turns out to be critical, since health impacts are far and away the most costly of those considered.

Before diving into some of the specific numbers, it's worth looking at a the general principles that dominate the results. The first is that the impact of changing carbon emissions is relatively slow. The Earth takes a while to adjust its temperature to match the energy added by additional carbon dioxide. As a result, we have a fair amount of upcoming warming already baked into the system due to our past emissions, which even aggressive fossil fuel cuts can't avoid. The result is that the climate impacts of changes we make don't typically become significant until late in the century.

In contrast, things like ozone and particulate pollution change almost instantly when changes to the energy mix are made. As a result, going on the path to 2º C warming produces statistically significant changes by 2030 in many cases. And, critically, those differences are largely local—we'd see well over half the benefits even if the entire rest of the planet continues using fossil fuels at current levels.

It’s (almost) all bad
In either of the trajectories consistent with climate goals (1.5º or 2.0º warming), emission of nitrogen oxides is dropped by about half while ozone production responds almost instantly. Particulate pollution is similar. These combine to produce a significant drop in premature deaths as early as 2030. In contrast, heat exposure continues to rise for a while, and reductions in heat-associated deaths don't show up until after 2050.

The benefits aren't evenly distributed, however. California, New York, and the northern Midwest see most of the benefits of the drop in pollution. By 2030, California sees over 5,000 fewer deaths/year compared to high-emissions scenarios. For particulates, both California and New York see over 5,000 fewer deaths/year by 2070. (Both of those numbers in comparison with higher emissions scenarios.)

In parallel with deaths, there's a relative drop in hospitalizations for asthma, heart disease, and lung problems. Since these conditions often lead to blood circulation issues in the brain, there's also an associated drop in the cases of dementia.

Overall, if you compare a 1.5º C emissions scenario to a prepandemic growth scenario, by 2070, you'd see 23,000 fewer deaths due to heat, 41,000 fewer deaths/year due to ozone, and 81,000 deaths/year due to particulates.

Finally, the increased heat has an impact on labor productivity. This mostly shows up in Southern states (which are hot already) and agricultural states (where a larger percentage of the workforce has to be outdoors). For agriculture itself, reducing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere cuts plant productivity slightly. But it's more than offset by the reduced ozone damage that the crops experience.

And it all adds up
For the climate benefits alone, the avoided costs are substantial: compared to a higher-emissions scenario, reaching a 2.0º C trajectory saves us about $400 billion by 2050 and $6 trillion by the end of the century. That alone would seem to justify paying upfront for significant emissions cuts, assuming that the rest of the world makes a similar commitment.

But remember that well over half of benefits of the pollution cuts will accrue even if the rest of the world does nothing. And those primarily result in health impacts, which are far and away the most expensive. At the high end of the estimates, a 2.0º C trajectory will save $163 trillion by the end of the century.

The team also looked at this in terms of estimates of the costs of getting our carbon emissions in line with the keeping within 2.0º C above preindustrial temperatures. The team estimates that, based on temperatures alone, the benefits and costs would reach parity by 2050. But if you add in the benefits of pollution reduction, the benefits would be between five and 25 times the cost of reducing fossil fuels as soon as 2030.

That's a ridiculously short payback time for a large investment, and an impressive return. The problem society faces is that the costs are very obvious: funding large power projects and paying for increased efficiency. The benefits, in contrast, are rather diffuse, involving lower average health costs, greater productivity throughout the economy, and avoided premature deaths. The numbers may add up. But one side of the equation is much more difficult to perceive.

If you'd like to try out various scenarios, the team has set up an online tool that lets you twiddle all the control knobs their analysis involved.


While I am tempted to say "well, duh, reducing the amount of pollutants we push into the atmosphere can only help," I'm still surprised by how much. So, NSG, is it worth spending the billions that will be needed to create enough renewable energy to save us these trillions? Why or why not?

I say yes, because saving lives and reducing health costs is hugely beneficial, obviously (Also, nuclear plants take forever to build, are prone to cost overruns, and are expensive regardless)
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Almanty
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Postby Almanty » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:25 pm

So uh renewable energy could save trillion money?
Last edited by Almanty on Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Neu California
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Postby Neu California » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:27 pm

Almanty wrote:Uh is it talking about renewable energy?

Yes. I ran out of title space again...
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Nouveau Yathrib
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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:29 pm

I've never seen "renewables" used in any context other than renewable energy. Let's hope the Biden administration's infrastructure bill passes ASAP with at least some green energy provisions.
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Almanty
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Postby Almanty » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:32 pm

Neu California wrote:
Almanty wrote:Uh is it talking about renewable energy?

Yes. I ran out of title space again...

Oh I see, (sorry I edit it)

Are you oppose to the nuclear energy?

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Postby Laka Strolistandiler » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:46 pm

Ah yes, the “renewable” energy with everyone ignoring the fact that the fellows trying to push it in Europe now expect blackouts. If only there was a solution- I think I may know one, starts with “n” and ends with “clear”… If only there was a solution…
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Postby Antipatros » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:58 pm

We really ought to institute a global emissions tax. The market would transition more quickly to clean energy if social costs were reflected in prices.

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Neu California
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Postby Neu California » Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:36 am

Almanty wrote:
Neu California wrote:Yes. I ran out of title space again...

Oh I see, (sorry I edit it)

Are you oppose to the nuclear energy?

In a sense, yes. It's economically unfeasible, from my understanding, due to the massive capex costs.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Ah yes, the “renewable” energy with everyone ignoring the fact that the fellows trying to push it in Europe now expect blackouts. If only there was a solution- I think I may know one, starts with “n” and ends with “clear”… If only there was a solution…


[Citation needed] because a quick google search found nothing outside of unreliable sites scaremongering (mostly those run by fossil fuel companies)

Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:39 am

Neu California wrote:
Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.


Batteries are the biggest problem with renewables, the technology isn't there yet and the batteries that are is expensive. The production of batteries involves plenty of extractive industries that take energy to mine and refine the materials from the ground. Cobalt, Lithium, rare Earth's, Copper. The impact of mining more of these necessary materials can offset carbon savings elsewhere.

Same problem is present with solar panels production. Plus it's a lot of waste once it's obsolete and gets thrown away for a newer panel.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Neu California » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:58 am

Saiwania wrote:
Neu California wrote:
Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.


Batteries are the biggest problem with renewables, the technology isn't there yet and the batteries that are is expensive. The production of batteries involves plenty of extractive industries that take energy to mine and refine the materials from the ground. Cobalt, Lithium, rare Earth's, Copper. The impact of mining more of these necessary materials can offset carbon savings elsewhere.

Same problem is present with solar panels production. Plus it's a lot of waste once it's obsolete and gets thrown away for a newer panel.


Battery prices have collapsed. They're not that expensive now.

As to cobalt, it's being phased out of battery production.

Also, the Union of Concerned Scientists calls talking points about lithium, cobalt, and rare earths overblown by the oil industry, which stands to lose a lot with the transition to electric vehicles.
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Postby Page » Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:40 am

Yeah, although it's sad that even something as necessary as mitigating the coming worldwide devastation of climate change can only go forward if first given the "it's good for the economy" stamp.

But of course this has been the status quo for a long time. "Your workers are contracting fatal lung diseases because of all the asbestos in your factory, would you like to get rid of the asbestos?" "Nope." "But if they're all dead you'll have to train new ones and the lost productivity will cost you more than getting rid of the asbestos." "Alright I'll get rid of the asbestos."
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Postby Greater Cosmicium » Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:42 am

Neu California wrote:
Almanty wrote:Oh I see, (sorry I edit it)

Are you oppose to the nuclear energy?

In a sense, yes. It's economically unfeasible, from my understanding, due to the massive capex costs.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Ah yes, the “renewable” energy with everyone ignoring the fact that the fellows trying to push it in Europe now expect blackouts. If only there was a solution- I think I may know one, starts with “n” and ends with “clear”… If only there was a solution…


[Citation needed] because a quick google search found nothing outside of unreliable sites scaremongering (mostly those run by fossil fuel companies)

Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.


The global battery capacity (that's of all batteries in the world!) in 2020 was just 755 GWh, and is projected to double to ~1,500 GWh by 2025 [1]. To do this, something like half of all lithium production (out of 82,000 tonnes) goes just to lithium-ion batteries. By comparison, the total electricity generation of all power plants was... 25.6... MILLION GWh... [2] If batteries were only needed for 8 hours per day, and they had perfect efficiency and scaling, 23,400 GWh of batteries would be needed, requiring 1.2 million tonnes of lithium, and a lot of other materials. Also, they have a limited lifespan, around 5-10 years, because of their limited charge cycles, so just replacing 10% of all batteries every year would require 120,000 tonnes of lithium, 50% more than is currently produced. And because reality doesn't scale, it'll be a lot more than 120,000, with growing energy consumption that 120,000 will be even more, and batteries will likely have to hold 24 or more hours of energy, which'll make many of these numbers triple or more.

And don't even get me started on pushes for global solar and wind deployment... You don't want massive blackouts every time nature doesn't cooperate with you, and can you guarantee your batteries will save you when you need it? Not to forget... RESOURCES? Where are you gonna get them?

I know there are companies promising their Innovative Technology!TM will solve some or all of these basic issues eventually... but, can we please stop waiting for the next big invention, global warming doesn't wait.

Sorry for this effortpost, it's stunning how many people don't know the most basic issue, facing every Civ player, company manager and anyone wanting to actually save the world. (resources)
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Postby Neuer California » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:01 am

Greater Cosmicium wrote:
Neu California wrote:In a sense, yes. It's economically unfeasible, from my understanding, due to the massive capex costs.



[Citation needed] because a quick google search found nothing outside of unreliable sites scaremongering (mostly those run by fossil fuel companies)

Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.


The global battery capacity (that's of all batteries in the world!) in 2020 was just 755 GWh, and is projected to double to ~1,500 GWh by 2025 [1]. To do this, something like half of all lithium production (out of 82,000 tonnes) goes just to lithium-ion batteries. By comparison, the total electricity generation of all power plants was... 25.6... MILLION GWh... [2] If batteries were only needed for 8 hours per day, and they had perfect efficiency and scaling, 23,400 GWh of batteries would be needed, requiring 1.2 million tonnes of lithium, and a lot of other materials. Also, they have a limited lifespan, around 5-10 years, because of their limited charge cycles, so just replacing 10% of all batteries every year would require 120,000 tonnes of lithium, 50% more than is currently produced. And because reality doesn't scale, it'll be a lot more than 120,000, with growing energy consumption that 120,000 will be even more, and batteries will likely have to hold 24 or more hours of energy, which'll make many of these numbers triple or more.

And don't even get me started on pushes for global solar and wind deployment... You don't want massive blackouts every time nature doesn't cooperate with you, and can you guarantee your batteries will save you when you need it? Not to forget... RESOURCES? Where are you gonna get them?

I know there are companies promising their Innovative Technology!TM will solve some or all of these basic issues eventually... but, can we please stop waiting for the next big invention, global warming doesn't wait.

Sorry for this effortpost, it's stunning how many people don't know the most basic issue, facing every Civ player, company manager and anyone wanting to actually save the world. (resources)

I'll trust the experts, over your post, thank you. Even four years ago, the experts overwhelmingly said that 100% renewables is reasonable and realistic.
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:15 am

Neuer California wrote:I'll trust the experts, over your post, thank you. Even four years ago, the experts overwhelmingly said that 100% renewables is reasonable and realistic.


Your own source says that 100% renewables isn't proven feasible. If a non-renewable source of power has to be used, nuclear looks pretty good as reinforcement. No carbon but radioactive waste that could perhaps be reused.
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Postby Haganham » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:15 am

Page wrote:Yeah, although it's sad that even something as necessary as mitigating the coming worldwide devastation of climate change can only go forward if first given the "it's good for the economy" stamp.

But of course this has been the status quo for a long time. "Your workers are contracting fatal lung diseases because of all the asbestos in your factory, would you like to get rid of the asbestos?" "Nope." "But if they're all dead you'll have to train new ones and the lost productivity will cost you more than getting rid of the asbestos." "Alright I'll get rid of the asbestos."

Its almost like economics describes the way people make choices and isn't just the study of line-go-up.
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Postby Greater Cosmicium » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:30 am

Neuer California wrote:
Greater Cosmicium wrote:
snip

I'll trust the experts, over your post, thank you. Even four years ago, the experts overwhelmingly said that 100% renewables is reasonable and realistic.


A study mentioned in the link you provided itself says “in all individual cases and across the aggregated evidence, the case for feasibility [of 100 percent renewable energy] is inadequate for the formation of responsible policy directed at responding to climate change.” (Jesse Jenkins, Samuel Thernstorn, 2017) Just because "renowned energy experts" say 100% renewable is possible to a solar lobbyist (REN21) doesn't mean they actually think that, or that their plans are for 100% renewable energy.

And you didn't even bother to address the resource and material problem, which is an inescapable topic whenever we talk about the methods of solving global warming.
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Postby Antipatros » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:24 am

Greater Cosmicium wrote:
Neu California wrote:In a sense, yes. It's economically unfeasible, from my understanding, due to the massive capex costs.



[Citation needed] because a quick google search found nothing outside of unreliable sites scaremongering (mostly those run by fossil fuel companies)

Also, there are these things called batteries that are being developed to help with shortfalls. My home state is the leader in grid storage deployment as seen here.


The global battery capacity (that's of all batteries in the world!) in 2020 was just 755 GWh, and is projected to double to ~1,500 GWh by 2025 [1]. To do this, something like half of all lithium production (out of 82,000 tonnes) goes just to lithium-ion batteries. By comparison, the total electricity generation of all power plants was... 25.6... MILLION GWh... [2] If batteries were only needed for 8 hours per day, and they had perfect efficiency and scaling, 23,400 GWh of batteries would be needed, requiring 1.2 million tonnes of lithium, and a lot of other materials. Also, they have a limited lifespan, around 5-10 years, because of their limited charge cycles, so just replacing 10% of all batteries every year would require 120,000 tonnes of lithium, 50% more than is currently produced. And because reality doesn't scale, it'll be a lot more than 120,000, with growing energy consumption that 120,000 will be even more, and batteries will likely have to hold 24 or more hours of energy, which'll make many of these numbers triple or more.

And don't even get me started on pushes for global solar and wind deployment... You don't want massive blackouts every time nature doesn't cooperate with you, and can you guarantee your batteries will save you when you need it? Not to forget... RESOURCES? Where are you gonna get them?

I know there are companies promising their Innovative Technology!TM will solve some or all of these basic issues eventually... but, can we please stop waiting for the next big invention, global warming doesn't wait.

Sorry for this effortpost, it's stunning how many people don't know the most basic issue, facing every Civ player, company manager and anyone wanting to actually save the world. (resources)

I don't think lithium is the issue here. Global lithium stocks are currently estimated to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 million tons. Total production is expected to triple from 2020 to 2030.

In the long run, battery recycling and different chemistries will also probably change the dynamics here.
Last edited by Antipatros on Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Antipatros » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:16 am

Antipatros wrote:
Greater Cosmicium wrote:
The global battery capacity (that's of all batteries in the world!) in 2020 was just 755 GWh, and is projected to double to ~1,500 GWh by 2025 [1]. To do this, something like half of all lithium production (out of 82,000 tonnes) goes just to lithium-ion batteries. By comparison, the total electricity generation of all power plants was... 25.6... MILLION GWh... [2] If batteries were only needed for 8 hours per day, and they had perfect efficiency and scaling, 23,400 GWh of batteries would be needed, requiring 1.2 million tonnes of lithium, and a lot of other materials. Also, they have a limited lifespan, around 5-10 years, because of their limited charge cycles, so just replacing 10% of all batteries every year would require 120,000 tonnes of lithium, 50% more than is currently produced. And because reality doesn't scale, it'll be a lot more than 120,000, with growing energy consumption that 120,000 will be even more, and batteries will likely have to hold 24 or more hours of energy, which'll make many of these numbers triple or more.

And don't even get me started on pushes for global solar and wind deployment... You don't want massive blackouts every time nature doesn't cooperate with you, and can you guarantee your batteries will save you when you need it? Not to forget... RESOURCES? Where are you gonna get them?

I know there are companies promising their Innovative Technology!TM will solve some or all of these basic issues eventually... but, can we please stop waiting for the next big invention, global warming doesn't wait.

Sorry for this effortpost, it's stunning how many people don't know the most basic issue, facing every Civ player, company manager and anyone wanting to actually save the world. (resources)

I don't think lithium is the issue here. Global lithium stocks are currently estimated to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 million tons. Total production is expected to triple from 2020 to 2030.

In the long run, battery recycling and different chemistries will also probably change the dynamics here.

When it comes to batteries, nickel is the more immediate problem in the next 5-10 years, I think. It's used in cathodes. Tesla, BYD, and Volkswagen are all trying to move away from it. Tesla and BYD are going to lithium iron phosphate cathodes and Volkswagen is going to a high-manganese cathode.


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