Do attacks on Liberal Icons Herald Doom of Democracy?

[Esalia]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there isn't much of an absolute connection between the presence of statues to a person and the preservation of their history. As in, you can knock down every Jefferson statue tomorrow and his history will still be preserved.

Particularly considering the existence of people like me, who have never seen a statue of Jefferson in their life but know who he is and the pop culture version of what he did.

[Ifreann]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

There's a statue of Lenin in Seattle which is, to sometimes very entertaining effect, routinely vandalised, so you're several years behind the times here.

[Stellar Colonies]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

As long as the Lenin statue in Seattle isn't touched, considering it is...

private property.

Edit: dangit Ifreann

[Dakini]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

Even the people who want all these statues taken down don't generally want them destroyed. They can be moved into museums where they can be viewed and their historical context explained.

The Colosseum isn't used as a place of entertainment any more. It's used as a place to learn about the history of Rome.

[Esalia]

There is one HUGE difference between reading about a culture/civilization and still having remnants of it to study and appreciate.
Will Thomas Jefferson be forgotten over his statue being removed? No.
Will future generations have anything to remember about him? Not if we just start destroying the physical heritage we have to remember him.

Why on Earth would they have nothing to remember about him?

Photographs exist, for modern people in particular the internet exists, and I'm sure Jefferson's done enough stuff that we can remember more stuff about him than a bunch of statues.

If the ability to remember something is based on there being historical record of it and no physical evidence of it, again, why not start destroying historical pieces of art? People already have pictures of them, and we have a lot of documentation about them. Why not destroy Picasso's art? Or the Mona-Lisa?

There is no justification whatsoever for destroying historical heritage. ANY historical heritage, independently of it representing something good or something bad should be preserved and respected, the fact a civilziation still exists doesn't mean it's any less worthy of being remembered.

What qualifies as "historical heritage"?

Because this can be applied to pretty much anything we produce. Houses from, say, Tudor England are historical heritage, does that mean I can't knock down a house because it must be preserved?

If there's nothing particularly special about something from a modern civilisation, I don't see why it's an absolute must for modern people to preserve it. We'll produce plenty more of it before we die.

And, frankly, I can't think of anything special about 99.9% of Jefferson statues that mean they must be treated the exact way we treat Tudor houses or Picasso's art.

[Heloin]

If a bit of iconoclasm is enough to destroy your country then your idea of democracy was already well and truly past the point of no return.

[Genivaria]

This is the same logic that taking down Confederate statues that glorify white supremacy is 'erasing history'.

[Genivaria]

If a bit of iconoclasm is enough to destroy your country then your idea of democracy was already well and truly past the point of no return.

Maybe a little too obsessed with symbols and as opposed to principles.

[Genivaria]

What do you mean what struggle? Jefferson led Virginia during the Revolutionary War.

Did his gubernatorial duties include charges against the British lines?

Had he been caught, he would have been hanged by the British as a traitor. He was very close to being caught on multiple occasions, and had to flee Virginia for his life due to a British advance.

I'm sure that was a very stressful horseback ride for him.

He served as the country's third president, despite never particularly wanting the job. I'd call that a greater sacrifice for one's country than anything anyone in this thread would be willing to make.

The struggle of being wealthy and powerful. My heart bleeds.

I mean, we don't have to just speak about "struggle", though that's certainly there. The man wrote the damn principal document of the Revolution. If that isn't a contribution to liberty and democracy I don't know what is.

He wrote a letter. Rather a lot of other people then fought a war to give effect to that letter. It seems to me that those people could have fought that same war to the same result if anyone else had written any other letter expressing the same intention.

Absolutely based my friend.

[Ifreann]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

Even the people who want all these statues taken down don't generally want them destroyed. They can be moved into museums where they can be viewed and their historical context explained.

The Colosseum isn't used as a place of entertainment any more. It's used as a place to learn about the history of Rome.

Destruction probably is appropriate for some of the statues that are removed from public display. Many of the pro-Confederate monuments around the US are little more than brass Funko Pops, and the hateful purpose behind their erection would continue to be served by preserving them in museums. A few statues, removed from their plinths and brought down to ground level, could probably be used in exhibitions about the Lost Cause myth, but most could probably be recycled for their materials.

[The V I C]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

Fine. It isnt like the statue is the man himself.

[Skelly Man Dan]

I think that white supremacy and the rise of outright fascism is more likely to doom democracy than anything else.

But when authoritarians are the boldest they've felt in years and millions are willing to reject democratic elections, it's really each centimeter that we move to the left of Reagan that needs to be watched with great concern. /s

[The V I C]

I'm gonna be honest, if destroying a statue was all it took to bring about the demise of the American Republic, then America was weak. Jefferson is the past. He did things that still affect the present but to deify a man this much isn't healthy. It's not natural. Stop looking for heroes in other times and be one in yours. That's my view on the whole subject.

[Skelly Man Dan]

Of course, we are seeing similar attacks play out against other liberal icons. Washington, whose decision to voluntarily step down from political power following the end of his service as commander of the Continental forces is without question the most important historical development in the history of the United States and of liberalism in total, is attacked along similar lines to Jefferson. Little needs to be said of the heroisms of Lincoln, who ended slavery in America, and of Churchill, who defended the liberal world against an unspeakable Nazi tyranny.

I think it's telling that the things you frame these figures for are not the reasons people are critiquing them. Yes, it's important to acknowlege the important things they did and reasonable to bring them up as a counterargument, but unless people want Washington's statues removed for voluntarily stepping down, you're being disingenuous. There's actually a little irony to this, because if you feel that the things about these men that matter to you are being ignored, imagine the people you're dismissing, especially when Washington and Jefferson were untouchable on the subject of race and slavery for (probably) a good 200 years.


Also, if anyone could give me a fair shakedown on the critiques of Lincoln, that'd be much appreciated. He's really the only figure that I definitely don't agree with taking statues down and criticism of him doesn't seem as widespread as the others, but I'd still like to know why people feel that way, even if I don't agree.

[The V I C]

Of course, we are seeing similar attacks play out against other liberal icons. Washington, whose decision to voluntarily step down from political power following the end of his service as commander of the Continental forces is without question the most important historical development in the history of the United States and of liberalism in total, is attacked along similar lines to Jefferson. Little needs to be said of the heroisms of Lincoln, who ended slavery in America, and of Churchill, who defended the liberal world against an unspeakable Nazi tyranny.

I think it's telling that the things you frame these figures for are not the reasons people are critiquing them. Yes, it's important to acknowlege the important things they did and reasonable to bring them up as a counterargument, but unless people want Washington's statues removed for voluntarily stepping down, you're being disingenuous. There's actually a little irony to this, because if you feel that the things about these men that matter to you are being ignored, imagine the people you're dismissing, especially when Washington and Jefferson were untouchable on the subject of race and slavery for (probably) a good 200 years.


Also, if anyone could give me a fair shakedown on the critiques of Lincoln, that'd be much appreciated. He's really the only figure that I definitely don't agree with taking statues down and criticism of him doesn't seem as widespread as the others, but I'd like to know the talking points surrounding it just to be sure.

Didn't he kill a bunch of native americans?

[Skelly Man Dan]

I think it's telling that the things you frame these figures for are not the reasons people are critiquing them. Yes, it's important to acknowlege the important things they did and reasonable to bring them up as a counterargument, but unless people want Washington's statues removed for voluntarily stepping down, you're being disingenuous. There's actually a little irony to this, because if you feel that the things about these men that matter to you are being ignored, imagine the people you're dismissing, especially when Washington and Jefferson were untouchable on the subject of race and slavery for (probably) a good 200 years.


Also, if anyone could give me a fair shakedown on the critiques of Lincoln, that'd be much appreciated. He's really the only figure that I definitely don't agree with taking statues down and criticism of him doesn't seem as widespread as the others, but I'd like to know the talking points surrounding it just to be sure.

Didn't he kill a bunch of native americans?

That might be it. Unfortunately, one of my other personal favorite presidents (Grant) also wasn't great on that front either, since not many (any?) president was. Got to admit, better reason than I expected and it's only fair to talk about that. I still think that if anyone's good outweighs the bad, it has to be Lincoln, but I can understand why not everyone would be fond of him.

[Ispravlennaja Tsekovija]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

except that leftism is good whereas petulant tax-evading secessionism, slavery, & ***** ***** are not

[Kubra]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

Bruh Marx's tombstone is under 24h surveillance

[Dumpstopia]

Wait, what kind of a question is this? I don't think destroying democracy was at the forefront of anyone's mind when they called for these statues to be taken down. This is a racial issue, not an ideological issue.

[The V I C]

Wait, what kind of a question is this? I don't think destroying democracy was at the forefront of anyone's mind when they called for these statues to be taken down. This is a racial issue, not an ideological issue.

If anything we'll be a better society and a freer one when we stop worshipping dead men. Yeah the founders did good things, but many of them also did not so good things, and at day's end are we really so incapable of greatness or original thought that we have to keep harkening back to the past to feel any sense of pride? Thomas Jefferson died 195 years ago. It's time we have our own great man of our times.

[Federal Reclamation Initiative]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

Already happens across the world, a bit late you are.

[The Black Forrest]

Wait, what kind of a question is this? I don't think destroying democracy was at the forefront of anyone's mind when they called for these statues to be taken down. This is a racial issue, not an ideological issue.

If anything we'll be a better society and a freer one when we stop worshipping dead men. Yeah the founders did good things, but many of them also did not so good things, and at day's end are we really so incapable of greatness or original thought that we have to keep harkening back to the past to feel any sense of pride? Thomas Jefferson died 195 years ago. It's time we have our own great man of our times.

How would we have a better society and a freer one?

The problem with greatness is it’s not generally accepted until time moves on.

Who do you think we should be celebrating now?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

If anything we'll be a better society and a freer one when we stop worshipping dead men. Yeah the founders did good things, but many of them also did not so good things, and at day's end are we really so incapable of greatness or original thought that we have to keep harkening back to the past to feel any sense of pride? Thomas Jefferson died 195 years ago. It's time we have our own great man of our times.

How would we have a better society and a freer one?

The problem with greatness is it’s not generally accepted until time moves on.

Who do you think we should be celebrating now?

William Wilberforce, the Slave Trade Act of 1807 and the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833.

[The Black Forrest]

Wait, what kind of a question is this? I don't think destroying democracy was at the forefront of anyone's mind when they called for these statues to be taken down. This is a racial issue, not an ideological issue.

One would wonder is who will it improve racial issues if statues of Jefferson were removed?

[The Black Forrest]

How would we have a better society and a freer one?

The problem with greatness is it’s not generally accepted until time moves on.

Who do you think we should be celebrating now?

William Wilberforce, the Slave Trade Act of 1807 and the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833.

Hmmm? I am not sure you will have Americans calling for celebrating him putting up statues of him. Also, you mentioned great men of our times which is what I was curious about.