Do attacks on Liberal Icons Herald Doom of Democracy?

[Vassenor]

Oh right, are we still doing the whole "removing statues sends the subject down the memory hole" thing as though no other record of his existence survives?

You are arguing against an argument I never made. Of course Thomas Jefferson and his legacy still exist even if there are no more statues to him. The left is not so powerful enough to do away with the democracy, religious freedom, or republicanism that Jefferson enshrined.

However, the removal of Jefferson's statues is clearly intended not only to deny Jefferson the credit he deserves in enshrining the aforementioned democratic principles, but also represents a rebuke of those principles themselves. It isn't much in itself but it represents a worrying trend of people turning away from a liberal past and towards authoritarianism on both the right and the left and that's something I will not abide.

In liberal societies it is a cultural duty that we instill the values that men like Jefferson enshrined into civic life, that we pass them on to our children, and that we keep them as sacred in our politics. Statues of men like Jefferson exist in public spaces to remind us of the struggles that previous generations suffered in order to realise these values, and as celebrations of democracy and liberalism. To destroy a statue of Jefferson is to sever a link to the past and to rebuke a man without whose contribution democracy may not have taken root in the world.

efface verb
ef·​face | \ i-ˈfās
, e- \
effaced; effacing
Definition of efface

transitive verb
1 : to eliminate or make indistinct by or as if by wearing away a surface coins with dates effaced by wear also : to cause to vanish daylight effaced the stars

So how does removing statues eliminate his legacy?

[Ifreann]

I find it very strange to try and give credit for all social and political progress in the last 250 years to a man who wrote down some words he didn't really believe in an effort to lower his tax bill.

I mean, he did believe in them. And it really does not matter what he personally thought, certainly not as much as the words he put on paper.

Clearly he did not believe that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is rather obvious from the fact that he owned slaves. But if what matters is just the words he put on paper, well that is hardly the keystone holding up the whole idea of freedom and equality. Had he not written those words, later fights for civil rights in the US would still have happened.

[-Ra-]

Clearly he did not believe that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is rather obvious from the fact that he owned slaves.

People who act hypocritically do not necessarily not believe in the principles they proport to uphold. It just means that they are flawed human beings. This is of course the same man who abolished the slave trade in America.

Regardless, slavery is one facet of the man's legacy, and no honest historical argument would examine it to the detriment of all others, in particular Jefferson's commitment to religious freedom or republican democracy.

But if what matters is just the words he put on paper, well that is hardly the keystone holding up the whole idea of freedom and equality. Had he not written those words, later fights for civil rights in the US would still have happened.

No it wouldn't. There would not have been a United States without the work of men like Thomas Jefferson. And there would not have been a Constitution or Declaration of Independence for the likes of Martin Luther King or, hell, even Ho Chi Minh to quote without Thomas Jefferson. The words he put on paper are reason good enough to memorialise him, given how important and revolutionary those words were.

You are arguing against an argument I never made. Of course Thomas Jefferson and his legacy still exist even if there are no more statues to him. The left is not so powerful enough to do away with the democracy, religious freedom, or republicanism that Jefferson enshrined.

However, the removal of Jefferson's statues is clearly intended not only to deny Jefferson the credit he deserves in enshrining the aforementioned democratic principles, but also represents a rebuke of those principles themselves. It isn't much in itself but it represents a worrying trend of people turning away from a liberal past and towards authoritarianism on both the right and the left and that's something I will not abide.

In liberal societies it is a cultural duty that we instill the values that men like Jefferson enshrined into civic life, that we pass them on to our children, and that we keep them as sacred in our politics. Statues of men like Jefferson exist in public spaces to remind us of the struggles that previous generations suffered in order to realise these values, and as celebrations of democracy and liberalism. To destroy a statue of Jefferson is to sever a link to the past and to rebuke a man without whose contribution democracy may not have taken root in the world.

efface verb
ef·​face | \ i-ˈfās
, e- \
effaced; effacing
Definition of efface

transitive verb
1 : to eliminate or make indistinct by or as if by wearing away a surface coins with dates effaced by wear also : to cause to vanish daylight effaced the stars

So how does removing statues eliminate his legacy?

I'll wait for you to make a competent argument.

[Ifreann]

Oh right, are we still doing the whole "removing statues sends the subject down the memory hole" thing as though no other record of his existence survives?

You are arguing against an argument I never made. Of course Thomas Jefferson and his legacy still exist even if there are no more statues to him. The left is not so powerful enough to do away with the democracy, religious freedom, or republicanism that Jefferson enshrined.

However, the removal of Jefferson's statues is clearly intended not only to deny Jefferson the credit he deserves in enshrining the aforementioned democratic principles, but also represents a rebuke of those principles themselves. It isn't much in itself but it represents a worrying trend of people turning away from a liberal past and towards authoritarianism on both the right and the left and that's something I will not abide.

In liberal societies it is a cultural duty that we instill the values that men like Jefferson enshrined into civic life, that we pass them on to our children, and that we keep them as sacred in our politics. Statues of men like Jefferson exist in public spaces to remind us of the struggles that previous generations suffered in order to realise these values, and as celebrations of democracy and liberalism. To destroy a statue of Jefferson is to sever a link to the past and to rebuke a man without whose contribution democracy may not have taken root in the world.

What struggles did Jefferson suffer to bring freedom, equality, and liberal democracy to the American people?

[-Ra-]

You are arguing against an argument I never made. Of course Thomas Jefferson and his legacy still exist even if there are no more statues to him. The left is not so powerful enough to do away with the democracy, religious freedom, or republicanism that Jefferson enshrined.

However, the removal of Jefferson's statues is clearly intended not only to deny Jefferson the credit he deserves in enshrining the aforementioned democratic principles, but also represents a rebuke of those principles themselves. It isn't much in itself but it represents a worrying trend of people turning away from a liberal past and towards authoritarianism on both the right and the left and that's something I will not abide.

In liberal societies it is a cultural duty that we instill the values that men like Jefferson enshrined into civic life, that we pass them on to our children, and that we keep them as sacred in our politics. Statues of men like Jefferson exist in public spaces to remind us of the struggles that previous generations suffered in order to realise these values, and as celebrations of democracy and liberalism. To destroy a statue of Jefferson is to sever a link to the past and to rebuke a man without whose contribution democracy may not have taken root in the world.

What struggles did Jefferson suffer to bring freedom, equality, and liberal democracy to the American people?

What do you mean what struggle? Jefferson led Virginia during the Revolutionary War. Had he been caught, he would have been hanged by the British as a traitor. He was very close to being caught on multiple occasions, and had to flee Virginia for his life due to a British advance. He served as the country's third president, despite never particularly wanting the job. I'd call that a greater sacrifice for one's country than anything anyone in this thread would be willing to make.

I mean, we don't have to just speak about "struggle", though that's certainly there. The man wrote the damn principal document of the Revolution. If that isn't a contribution to liberty and democracy I don't know what is.

[Ifreann]

Clearly he did not believe that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is rather obvious from the fact that he owned slaves.

People who act hypocritically do not necessarily not believe in the principles they proport to uphold. It just means that they are flawed human beings. This is of course the same man who abolished the slave trade in America.

And yet slavery persisted. Not an especially effective abolition.

Regardless, slavery is one facet of the man's legacy, and no honest historical argument would examine it to the detriment of all others, in particular Jefferson's commitment to religious freedom or republican democracy.

Nor can his supposed commitment to religious freedom and republican democracy honestly be examined in isolation from his use of slave labour and his genocidal policies towards the Native Americans.

But if what matters is just the words he put on paper, well that is hardly the keystone holding up the whole idea of freedom and equality. Had he not written those words, later fights for civil rights in the US would still have happened.

No it wouldn't. There would not have been a United States without the work of men like Thomas Jefferson. And there would not have been a Constitution or Declaration of Independence for the likes of Martin Luther King or, hell, even Ho Chi Minh to quote without Thomas Jefferson. The words he put on paper are reason good enough to memorialise him, given how important and revolutionary those words were.

Martin Luther King and Ho Chi Minh did not need Thomas Jefferson to tell them about equality and freedom. If some slave had taken a farm implement to Master Jefferson's head and killed him before he made any of his famous contributions to history, the idea of liberal democracy would not have vanished from the Earth. King and Ho would have quoted someone else.

[Andronya]

In general the destruction of monuments, independently of what they where built for or by, simply isn't justified, the way I see it's a form of history negationism (If the term even exists).

If for some reason it's right to destroy X, Y or Z statue of someone because he/she did something bad, why don't we also destroy the Coloseum? After all... slaves where sent there to die for entertainment.

Overall, it's just not right to destroy a piece of history over its association with something bad, history is to be preserved, respected and studied, not be destroyed to preserve some sort of moral self-righteousness that current people hold themselves to have.

[Ifreann]

What struggles did Jefferson suffer to bring freedom, equality, and liberal democracy to the American people?

What do you mean what struggle? Jefferson led Virginia during the Revolutionary War.

Did his gubernatorial duties include charges against the British lines?

Had he been caught, he would have been hanged by the British as a traitor. He was very close to being caught on multiple occasions, and had to flee Virginia for his life due to a British advance.

I'm sure that was a very stressful horseback ride for him.

He served as the country's third president, despite never particularly wanting the job. I'd call that a greater sacrifice for one's country than anything anyone in this thread would be willing to make.

The struggle of being wealthy and powerful. My heart bleeds.

I mean, we don't have to just speak about "struggle", though that's certainly there. The man wrote the damn principal document of the Revolution. If that isn't a contribution to liberty and democracy I don't know what is.

He wrote a letter. Rather a lot of other people then fought a war to give effect to that letter. It seems to me that those people could have fought that same war to the same result if anyone else had written any other letter expressing the same intention.

[Ifreann]

In general the destruction of monuments, independently of what they where built for or by, simply isn't justified, the way I see it's a form of history negationism (If the term even exists).

If for some reason it's right to destroy X, Y or Z statue of someone because he/she did something bad, why don't we also destroy the Coloseum? After all... slaves where sent there to die for entertainment.

Overall, it's just not right to destroy a piece of history over its association with something bad, history is to be preserved, respected and studied, not be destroyed to preserve some sort of moral self-righteousness that current people hold themselves to have.

The colosseum is preserved because it is one of a limited number of remnants from a no longer extant civilisation. This statue of Jefferson was erected in 1834, and is a plaster version of a bronze statue that stands in the Capitol Rotunda. It has no great historical value in and of itself. It is not the last example of a lost art form. The civilisation that created it still exists, and it is people of that civilisation who are removing it from public display.

[Andronya]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

[The V I C]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

My man, no one is out to destroy every single statue of Jefferson. It isn't like if one statue of Jefferson goes bye-bye, he's automatically removed from history.

[The Holy Therns]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

It's a statue. History remains and can be read anywhere.

[Norvosburgh]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

My man, no one is out to destroy every single statue of Jefferson. It isn't like if one statue of Jefferson goes bye-bye, he's automatically removed from history.

Once one is removed, what's stopping the rest?

[The Holy Therns]

My man, no one is out to destroy every single statue of Jefferson. It isn't like if one statue of Jefferson goes bye-bye, he's automatically removed from history.

Once one is removed, what's stopping the rest?

Will this make you forget Thomas Jefferson somehow?

[Ifreann]

So a civilziation has to go extinct for it to be respected? And its history preserved?

A civilisation has to go extinct for its works to have historical value as the surviving works of an extinct civilisation. The works of an existing civilisation do not necessarily have any historical value. One fewer American thing is not a terrible loss to future generations when there continues to be an America that continues to create more American things. But there is no more Rome to create more Roman things. This statue is not like the Colosseum.

[Galactic Transylvania]

Criticism of people who have done bad things even if they've contributed positively to society otherwise does not herald the end of free society, no.

Actually its part of free society.

[Andronya]

There is one HUGE difference between reading about a culture/civilization and still having remnants of it to study and appreciate.
Will Thomas Jefferson be forgotten over his statue being removed? No.
Will future generations have anything to remember about him? Not if we just start destroying the physical heritage we have to remember him.

If the ability to remember something is based on there being historical record of it and no physical evidence of it, again, why not start destroying historical pieces of art? People already have pictures of them, and we have a lot of documentation about them. Why not destroy Picasso's art? Or the Mona-Lisa?

There is no justification whatsoever for destroying historical heritage. ANY historical heritage, independently of it representing something good or something bad should be preserved and respected, the fact a civilziation still exists doesn't mean it's any less worthy of being remembered.

[Ifreann]

There is one HUGE difference between reading about a culture/civilization and still having remnants of it to study and appreciate.

Again, America still exists. If anything the challenge is not being exposed to their cultural works.

Will Thomas Jefferson be forgotten over his statue being removed? No.
Will future generations have anything to remember about him? Not if we just start destroying the physical heritage we have to remember him.

Statues of Thomas Jefferson are not physical heritage of the man and his life.

If the ability to remember something is based on there being historical record of it and no physical evidence of it, again, why not start destroying historical pieces of art? People already have pictures of them, and we have a lot of documentation about them. Why not destroy Picasso's art? Or the Mona-Lisa?

Thomas Jefferson did not create this statue of himself 8 years after his own death.

There is no justification whatsoever for destroying historical heritage. ANY historical heritage, independently of it representing something good or something bad should be preserved and respected, the fact a civilziation still exists doesn't mean it's any less worthy of being remembered.

How many American cars are there? Should we treat every one of them as a historical artefact and preserve them all for future generations? And cars are objects with cultural value in America, certainly some cars should be preserved, but is every scrapyard a crime against history?

[The Holy Therns]

There is one HUGE difference between reading about a culture/civilization and still having remnants of it to study and appreciate.

Again, America still exists. If anything the challenge is not being exposed to their cultural works.

Will Thomas Jefferson be forgotten over his statue being removed? No.
Will future generations have anything to remember about him? Not if we just start destroying the physical heritage we have to remember him.

Statues of Thomas Jefferson are not physical heritage of the man and his life.

If the ability to remember something is based on there being historical record of it and no physical evidence of it, again, why not start destroying historical pieces of art? People already have pictures of them, and we have a lot of documentation about them. Why not destroy Picasso's art? Or the Mona-Lisa?

Thomas Jefferson did not create this statue of himself 8 years after his own death.

There is no justification whatsoever for destroying historical heritage. ANY historical heritage, independently of it representing something good or something bad should be preserved and respected, the fact a civilziation still exists doesn't mean it's any less worthy of being remembered.

How many American cars are there? Should we treat every one of them as a historical artefact and preserve them all for future generations? And cars are objects with cultural value in America, certainly some cars should be preserved, but is every scrapyard a crime against history?

Every single hamburger must be preserved.

[Galactic Transylvania]

Again, America still exists. If anything the challenge is not being exposed to their cultural works.

Statues of Thomas Jefferson are not physical heritage of the man and his life.


Thomas Jefferson did not create this statue of himself 8 years after his own death.


How many American cars are there? Should we treat every one of them as a historical artefact and preserve them all for future generations? And cars are objects with cultural value in America, certainly some cars should be preserved, but is every scrapyard a crime against history?

Every single hamburger must be preserved.

We must not eat a single hamburger for fear that people forget hamburgers exist.

[Ifreann]

Again, America still exists. If anything the challenge is not being exposed to their cultural works.

Statues of Thomas Jefferson are not physical heritage of the man and his life.


Thomas Jefferson did not create this statue of himself 8 years after his own death.


How many American cars are there? Should we treat every one of them as a historical artefact and preserve them all for future generations? And cars are objects with cultural value in America, certainly some cars should be preserved, but is every scrapyard a crime against history?

Every single hamburger must be preserved.

"It belongs in a museum! You're destroying history!" I yell at the burly men removing me from the premises
"Sir," one tells me, "This is a Wendy's"

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

[Dakini]

I find it very strange to try and give credit for all social and political progress in the last 250 years to a man who wrote down some words he didn't really believe in an effort to lower his tax bill.

I mean, he did believe in them. And it really does not matter what he personally thought, certainly not as much as the words he put on paper.

He believed that all men were created equal, which is why he owned over 600 people during his adult life and believed that enslaved people should be deported after being freed...


...right.

[Uiiop]

Does anyone actually have any data backing up their claims on the roles of these statues? If their concerns are valid then Breckenridge or somewhere else should show you what happens when things changers.

Because it does just read as cargo cult pedagogy and psychogeography rather than an actually reasonable takes on those.

Demanding we all just like a guy or are traitors to something even he didn't take as much credit for just doesn't make sense.

[Uiiop]

Okay, so I hope all the leftists in this thread are okay if I destroy creations that depict socialist/communist ideas and revolutionaries. Mostly murals, monuments, little artefacts here and there - then I will move onto original written texts and artwork. You'll still be able to read about it's existence, I'll just eradicate it's physical presence in a humiliating way. Graffiti, defacement, so it's a big show.
If that's alright, free reign to make my mobs, then you can do you.

Noone is going that far lmao.

Besides shouldn't you like mao and china because they pretty much have the same damn excuses for their dick moves as Jefferson did.