NATION

PASSWORD

Scientists recreate origin of life experiment...(long title)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Neuer California
Diplomat
 
Posts: 577
Founded: Oct 15, 2021
Ex-Nation

Scientists recreate origin of life experiment...(long title)

Postby Neuer California » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:50 pm

And make a new discovery

Ars Tecnica wrote:In 1952, a University of Chicago chemist named Stanley Miller and his adviser, Harold Urey, conducted a famous experiment. Their results, published the following year, provided the first evidence that the complex organic molecules necessary for the emergence of life (abiogenesis) could be formed using simpler inorganic precursors, essentially founding the field of prebiotic chemistry. Now a team of Spanish and Italian scientists has recreated that seminal experiment and discovered a contributing factor that Miller and Urey missed. According to a recent paper published in the journal Scientific Reports, minerals in the borosilicate glass used to make the tubes and flasks for the experiment speed up the rate at which organic molecules form.

In 1924 and 1929, respectively, Alexander Oparin and J.B.S. Haldane had hypothesized that the conditions on our primitive Earth would have favored the kind of chemical reactions that could synthesize complex organic molecules from simple inorganic precursors—sometimes known as the "primordial soup" hypothesis. Amino acids formed first, becoming the building blocks that, when combined, made more complex polymers.

Miller set up an apparatus to test that hypothesis by simulating what scientists at the time believed Earth's original atmosphere might have been. He sealed methane, ammonia, and hydrogen inside a sterile 5-liter borosilicate glass flask, connected to a second 500-ml flask half-filled with water. Then Miller heated the water, producing vapor, which in turn passed into the larger flask filled with chemicals, creating a mini-primordial atmosphere. There were also continuous electric sparks firing between two electrodes to simulate lighting. Then the "atmosphere" was cooled down, causing the vapor to condense back into water. The water trickled down into a trap at the bottom of the apparatus.

That solution turned pink after one day and deep red after a week. At that point, Miller removed the boiling flask and added barium hydroxide and sulfuric acid to stop the reaction. After evaporating the solution to remove any impurities, Miller tested what remained via paper chromatography. All known life consists of just 20 amino acids. Miller's experiment produced five amino acids, although he was less certain about the results for two of them.

When Miller showed his results to Urey, the latter suggested a paper should be published as soon as possible. (Urey was senior but generously declined to be listed as co-author, lest this lead to Miller getting little to no credit for the work.) The paper appeared in 1953 in the journal Science. "Just turning on the spark in a basic pre-biotic experiment will yield 11 out of 20 amino acids," Miller said in a 1996 interview. The original apparatus has been on display at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science since 2013.

Miller died in 2007. Shortly before he passed, one of his students, Jeffrey Bada, now at the University of San Diego, inherited all his mentor's original equipment. This included several boxes filled with vials of dried residues from the original experiment. Those 1952 samples were re-analyzed the following year using the latest chromatography methods, revealing that the original experiment actually produced even more compounds (25) than had been reported at the time.

Miller had also performed additional experiments simulating conditions similar to those of a water-vapor-rich volcanic eruption, which involved spraying steam from a nozzle at the spark discharge. Bada and several colleagues re-analyzed the original samples from those experiments, too, and found this environment produced 22 amino acids, five amines, and several hydroxylated molecules. So the original experiments were even more successful than Miller and Urey realized.

There have been many, many more experiments on abiogenesis over the ensuing decades, but co-author Joaquin Criado-Reyes of the Universidad de Granada in Spain and his collaborators thought that one potential factor had been overlooked: the role of the borosilicate glass that comprised the flasks and tubes Miller had used. They noted that Miller's simulated atmosphere was highly alkaline, which should cause the silica to dissolve. "Therefore, it could be expected that upon contact of the alkaline water with the inner wall of the borosilicate flask, even this reinforced glass will slightly dissolve, releasing silica and traces of other metal oxides [into the vapor]," the authors wrote.

To test their hypothesis, Criado-Reyes et al. recreated three versions of the Miller-Urey experiment, mostly using the same chemicals and equipment. One version used the same borosilicate flasks Miller had used; another version used a Teflon flask; and a third version used a Teflon flask with pieces of borosilicate submerged in the water.

The results: far fewer organic compounds formed in the experiments using just the Teflon flasks. As geologist David Bressan wrote at Forbes:

Miller and Urey used equipment made from borosilicate glass as this special type of heat-resistant material is commonly used in chemical laboratories all over the world. But the new experiment shows how similar materials may have played a major role in the origin of life on Earth. More than 90 percent of Earth’s crust is made up of silicates, minerals composed predominantly of silicon-dioxide. Weathering of silicate minerals by the corrosive primordial atmosphere and water may have provided the right conditions for the assembly of the first building blocks of life on Earth.

This finding supports the authors' original hypothesis. Corrosion on the surface of the glass (due to the hot and caustic water circulating through it) plays a key role, since this releases silicon-dioxide molecules into the solution. This in turn acts as a catalyst to speed up the chemical reactions between the nitrogen, carbon, and hydrogen atoms that ultimately create organic molecules. In addition, they found that the corrosion on the glass also forms millions of tiny pits. The authors think those pits could serve as tiny reaction chambers, also speeding up the rate at which organic molecules form in the experiment.

These results are consistent with recent suggestions that it was the combination of a reduced atmosphere, electrical storms, silicate-rich rocky surfaces, and liquid water that led to the origin of life. "Miller recreated in his experiments the atmosphere and waters of the primitive Earth," the authors concluded. "The role of the rocks was hidden in the walls of the reactors."


Fun stuff, and additional evidence that Abiogenesis, and not some intelligent creator, is a very probable cause for the emergence of life on our pale blue dot.

So, what does NSG think? Is the experiment flawed in some way? Did Abiogenesis lead to live emerging on earth? My opinion is thus: no and yes.
Puppet of Neu California. I wanted a fresh start on my nation.
And yes, that is two girls kissing in my flag. I am strongly pro-LGBT and a big fan of yuri stuff, so...
Pro: gun control, LGBT rights, taxing the rich heavily, welfare, UBI, universal healthcare, corporate regulations
Anti: bullying, gun bans, unlimited gun rights, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, racism, sexism, Trump, excessive corporate power
34 year old agnostic writer of smut free lesbian speculative fiction. Aspergers, social anxiety, and yet not a giant raging dick
Ifreann wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Does this mean wlw is most holy in God's eyes?

It turns out that lesbians are God's chosen people.

User avatar
Cisairse
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10935
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cisairse » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:57 pm

Neat.
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

User avatar
Mercatus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1232
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Mercatus » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:12 pm

I mean, God created Adam by blowing on some dirt

So I could say both yes and no to abiogenesis.
About Me: Far-Right high schooler from Texas disillusioned with the progressive path being taken by society and propagated by young people.
Political Ideology: Right Wing Populism
Religion: Evangelical Baptist Christian

Pro: Gun Rights, Nuclear Family, Protectionist Economics, Capitalism, Israel, Border Wall, Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Energy, Traditional Social Values.
Anti: Communism, Socialism, BLM, LGBTQ Rights, Environmentalism, Affirmative Action, Globalism, Corporatism, Universalism, New Age Spirituality.

User avatar
Thermodolia
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76356
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:25 pm

Mercatus wrote:I mean, God created Adam by blowing on some dirt

So I could say both yes and no to abiogenesis.

You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.
Male, State Socialist, Cultural Nationalist, Welfare Chauvinist lives somewhere in AZ I'm GAY! Disabled US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

RIP Dya

User avatar
Dundee Derry
Envoy
 
Posts: 292
Founded: May 27, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Dundee Derry » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:34 pm

Neuer California wrote:-snip-

Is the experiment flawed in some way? Did Abiogenesis lead to live emerging on earth?


If Scientists reproduce similar results independently a Third time, then I think we have pretty good Science. The original results are fascinating, and offer great insights into the processes that began life, but they're not "life" per sé. They're the building blocks of life maybe; but a pallet full of bricks does not a house make. We still don't understand that bit.

The question I always ask when the origin of life is asked is: Why has life apparrenlty only emerged on Earth once? Earth is perfect for life to exist on, evidenced by the fact life exists here. But since all life on Earth is apparently related, and there's no evidence of it arising more than once. Surely we would expect this?
"I never thought in terms of being a leader. I thought very simply in terms of helping people."-John Hume
Ruaridhism: The notion that everything everywhere is dependent on a little man with a mustache called Ruaridh.
Economic Left/Right: -8.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49

Can we stop this habit of writing in really tiny writing? It's not clever and it's not funny. Some of us are short-sighted, and find it really difficult to read. Please? Thank you!

User avatar
Neanderthaland
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8993
Founded: Sep 10, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Neanderthaland » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:52 pm

Dundee Derry wrote:
Neuer California wrote:-snip-

Is the experiment flawed in some way? Did Abiogenesis lead to live emerging on earth?


If Scientists reproduce similar results independently a Third time, then I think we have pretty good Science. The original results are fascinating, and offer great insights into the processes that began life, but they're not "life" per sé. They're the building blocks of life maybe; but a pallet full of bricks does not a house make. We still don't understand that bit.

The question I always ask when the origin of life is asked is: Why has life apparrenlty only emerged on Earth once? Earth is perfect for life to exist on, evidenced by the fact life exists here. But since all life on Earth is apparently related, and there's no evidence of it arising more than once. Surely we would expect this?

Two things, one minor and one major:
Minor thing - The modern Earth has a lot of oxygen floating around. And while we tend to think of oxygen as good for life, it's actually a horrifyingly corrosive substance that life on Earth had to evolve defenses against. This would not have been a problem for early life on Earth, because there wasn't much free oxygen at the time. But it would be a problem for any life emerging today.

Major thing - The modern Earth is absolutely crawling with bacteria and other microorganisms. And while we tend to think of bacteria as simple, they are not. They are the grizzled heavyweight champions of a billion years of evolution. They are going to automatically outcompete almost any life that could arise. It would be like a lvl 1 character walking into competitive PvP in an MMO. So it's possible life has arisen many times, and just been immediately pwned like the n00bs they are.
Last edited by Neanderthaland on Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ug make fire. Mod ban Ug.

User avatar
Resilient Acceleration
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1139
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:52 pm

Dundee Derry wrote:
Neuer California wrote:-snip-

Is the experiment flawed in some way? Did Abiogenesis lead to live emerging on earth?


If Scientists reproduce similar results independently a Third time, then I think we have pretty good Science. The original results are fascinating, and offer great insights into the processes that began life, but they're not "life" per sé. They're the building blocks of life maybe; but a pallet full of bricks does not a house make. We still don't understand that bit.

The question I always ask when the origin of life is asked is: Why has life apparrenlty only emerged on Earth once? Earth is perfect for life to exist on, evidenced by the fact life exists here. But since all life on Earth is apparently related, and there's no evidence of it arising more than once. Surely we would expect this?

Well, considering life (especially microorganisms) tends to apparently spread almost literally everywhere, any secondary emergence would probably be outcompeted by its more advanced counterparts due to its hundreds of millions if not billions of years of a head start. More importantly, though, is that the contents of the air and the sea during the times of primordial soup have now changed, a big chunk of it due to biological processes like the Great Oxygenation. Also, we only know very little of the past due to the vast, vast majority of life sadly leaving no fossil records, so we have no idea if there have ever been other forms of independent abiogenesis in the past (when the conditions are still ripe) that may have become extinct.

2033.12.21
 TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots

A near-future scenario where transhumanist tech barons and their ruthless capitalism are trying to save the planet, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell | OOC

User avatar
Resilient Acceleration
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1139
Founded: Sep 23, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:04 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Mercatus wrote:I mean, God created Adam by blowing on some dirt

So I could say both yes and no to abiogenesis.

You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.

I mean the current accepted theory, Cosmic Inflation, doesn't actually say that everything starts from a single point. The laws of physics that guide abiogenesis also work perfectly fine without the need of an external correcting force, so I personally view God in terms of intelligent design as an unnecessary middleman that can be cut out without effect on anything else. Believing that "God has always existed" and believing that "the current models that result in the universe have always existed" is practically exactly the same, although the latter is basically "just" a model to describe reality constructed from (and is dependent of) human observations and is thus subject to change if better alternatives emerge. (Also, worryingly, physics models are also based on math, which has been conclusively proven to be incomplete, though I don't think its effects have emerged... yet.)
Last edited by Resilient Acceleration on Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2033.12.21
 TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots

A near-future scenario where transhumanist tech barons and their ruthless capitalism are trying to save the planet, emphasis on "try" | Resilient Accelerationism in a nutshell | OOC

User avatar
Mercatus
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1232
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Mercatus » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:43 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Mercatus wrote:I mean, God created Adam by blowing on some dirt

So I could say both yes and no to abiogenesis.

You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.


Bruh.

Christians can’t just pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible.
About Me: Far-Right high schooler from Texas disillusioned with the progressive path being taken by society and propagated by young people.
Political Ideology: Right Wing Populism
Religion: Evangelical Baptist Christian

Pro: Gun Rights, Nuclear Family, Protectionist Economics, Capitalism, Israel, Border Wall, Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Energy, Traditional Social Values.
Anti: Communism, Socialism, BLM, LGBTQ Rights, Environmentalism, Affirmative Action, Globalism, Corporatism, Universalism, New Age Spirituality.

User avatar
Great Algerstonia
Minister
 
Posts: 2617
Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:52 pm

Those scientists faked the results for street cred
Anti: Russia
Pro: Prussia
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.

User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40547
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:31 pm

Mercatus wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.


Bruh.

Christians can’t just pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible.

I mean, it really isn't that hard to say the creation myth is allegory.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though

User avatar
Ispravlennaja Tsekovija
Diplomat
 
Posts: 526
Founded: Oct 21, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Ispravlennaja Tsekovija » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:35 pm

Dundee Derry wrote:
Neuer California wrote:-snip-

Is the experiment flawed in some way? Did Abiogenesis lead to live emerging on earth?


If Scientists reproduce similar results independently a Third time, then I think we have pretty good Science. The original results are fascinating, and offer great insights into the processes that began life, but they're not "life" per sé. They're the building blocks of life maybe; but a pallet full of bricks does not a house make. We still don't understand that bit.

The question I always ask when the origin of life is asked is: Why has life apparrenlty only emerged on Earth once? Earth is perfect for life to exist on, evidenced by the fact life exists here. But since all life on Earth is apparently related, and there's no evidence of it arising more than once. Surely we would expect this?

others are focusing on a more modern timeframe but in the early evolution of life even, it is certainly possible that biological precursors appeared independently prior to the darwinian threshold and LUCA, but died out or engaged in horizontal gene transfer to the point of indistinguishability from one another. it's important to understand that in very early biological evolution there were no membranes and genes were highly communal, leading to extremely high amounts of recombination and convergence. and then once you pass the darwinian threshold, that's game over, simple communal rna blobs basically can't beat that and now that something already exists nothing else can develop parallel in the same niche. so you ultimately end up with one single LUCA.
""nsg is dumb" —barack obama" —plato

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43472
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:44 pm

Mercatus wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.


Bruh.

Christians can’t just pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible.

Christians literally discovered The Big Bang and Evolution, 2 things Christianity now preaches against.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2024

That's all folks~

User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 40547
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:45 pm

Ispravlennaja Tsekovija wrote:
Dundee Derry wrote:
If Scientists reproduce similar results independently a Third time, then I think we have pretty good Science. The original results are fascinating, and offer great insights into the processes that began life, but they're not "life" per sé. They're the building blocks of life maybe; but a pallet full of bricks does not a house make. We still don't understand that bit.

The question I always ask when the origin of life is asked is: Why has life apparrenlty only emerged on Earth once? Earth is perfect for life to exist on, evidenced by the fact life exists here. But since all life on Earth is apparently related, and there's no evidence of it arising more than once. Surely we would expect this?

others are focusing on a more modern timeframe but in the early evolution of life even, it is certainly possible that biological precursors appeared independently prior to the darwinian threshold and LUCA, but died out or engaged in horizontal gene transfer to the point of indistinguishability from one another. it's important to understand that in very early biological evolution there were no membranes and genes were highly communal, leading to extremely high amounts of recombination and convergence. and then once you pass the darwinian threshold, that's game over, simple communal rna blobs basically can't beat that and now that something already exists nothing else can develop parallel in the same niche. so you ultimately end up with one single LUCA.


Even now, viruses pretty easily have horizontal gene transfer and all that.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though

User avatar
GuessTheAltAccount
Minister
 
Posts: 2030
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:16 pm

Abiogenesis isn't even as relevant to human nature as our close evolutionary ties to the great apes, and the latter are plenty evident with or without abiogenesis anyway. I couldn't care less if someone denies abiogenesis. It's creationists getting in the way of looking into the origins of human nature that bothers me more.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.

User avatar
Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17486
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:09 pm

Mercatus wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You could still say yes to abiogenesis and say that god did it. All you have to say is that god kickstarted the Big Bang and that god guided everything to form as it did.

God didn’t create anything as told in the Bible.


Bruh.

Christians can’t just pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible.


They very clearly can as evidenced by the multiple different faiths out there.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

User avatar
GuessTheAltAccount
Minister
 
Posts: 2030
Founded: Apr 27, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:37 am

Bombadil wrote:
Mercatus wrote:
Bruh.

Christians can’t just pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible.


They very clearly can as evidenced by the multiple different faiths out there.

That and the Bible having contradicted itself hundreds of times. You kind of need to pick and choose.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aggicificicerous, Arsento, Bradfordville, Duvniask, Eternal Algerstonia, Fractalnavel, Great Arstozka, Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum, Heavenly Assault, Ifreann, Immoren, Necroghastia, New Temecula, New Wolvers, Page, Port Caverton, Rary, Republica de Sierra Nevada, Rio Cana, Serrus, Shrillland, Visionary Union

Advertisement

Remove ads