Racing Discussion II. It's light's out and away we go!

[Philjia]

The way F1 works has resulted in the sport being in a place where either you've found a loophole in the rules that allows you be miles faster than anyone else, or you haven't. Only four out of the ten competing teams won one of the 22 GPs in the 2021 season, and only two won more than one. Contrast with, say, the 2021 British Touring Car Championship (Yes, I am biased), where eight out of fifteen teams won at least one of the thirty races, using six of the eight different cars used in the series, and all four engines.

Well, basically every other sanctioning body has more parity than F1. Before Hamilton and Wolff were running the board you could predict the winner by which car Adrian Newey designed. Sports cars sometimes end up like this, usually at the hands of Porsche, but Audi had a run (before the R8-18, which was its whole other thing) that they turned into a marketing campaign with the "Unfair Advantage," the story of how their quattros became so dominant they had to be outlawed. But the 917/30 is credited with killing Can Am (along with the gas crisis) not because it dominated (before the 917/30 it was a never ending parade of McLarens, but at least different McLarens) but because it signaled that if anyone wanted to beat the 917/30 it was gonna take gallons of money because Porsche showed up with a sports car that put out 1200hp that weighed as much as a dinner plate. But F1 being a series with only 1-4 serious contenders I would say goes back to the pre-war era when Alfa Romeo dominated and Bugatti before that.

Also where very fast cars are concerned, letting the manufacturers do what the want has historically had a tendency to produce vehicles that were, frankly, insanely dangerous, and F1 in particular has swung somewhat wildly between "dull" and "exciting in large part because you might get to see someone die in real time".

Speaking of Newey, he told Mercedes to withdraw the amazing flying Mercedes CLR back in 1999 and they didn't. Miracle that nobody was killed.

[Cannot think of a name]

Well, basically every other sanctioning body has more parity than F1. Before Hamilton and Wolff were running the board you could predict the winner by which car Adrian Newey designed. Sports cars sometimes end up like this, usually at the hands of Porsche, but Audi had a run (before the R8-18, which was its whole other thing) that they turned into a marketing campaign with the "Unfair Advantage," the story of how their quattros became so dominant they had to be outlawed. But the 917/30 is credited with killing Can Am (along with the gas crisis) not because it dominated (before the 917/30 it was a never ending parade of McLarens, but at least different McLarens) but because it signaled that if anyone wanted to beat the 917/30 it was gonna take gallons of money because Porsche showed up with a sports car that put out 1200hp that weighed as much as a dinner plate. But F1 being a series with only 1-4 serious contenders I would say goes back to the pre-war era when Alfa Romeo dominated and Bugatti before that.

Also where very fast cars are concerned, letting the manufacturers do what the want has historically had a tendency to produce vehicles that were, frankly, insanely dangerous, and F1 in particular has swung somewhat wildly between "dull" and "exciting in large part because you might get to see someone die in real time".

Speaking of Newey, he told Mercedes to withdraw the amazing flying Mercedes CLR back in 1999 and they didn't. Miracle that nobody was killed.

Well, that whole formula was flawed. The CLR-GTR wasn't the only GT-1 car to achieve lift off, it was just the only one to land in a tree. The Porsche GT-1 also took flight and slammed back to the ground. They banned tunnel bodies that were common on GTP cars and the result was a little air gets underneath and it's up up and away. So it wasn't just the arms race that the F1-GTR started and then went coo coo bananas when Porsche and Mercedes and Toyota started dumping money in 'production' cars (Toyota never even made 25 fake ones, just one 'road legal' one that never left their headquarters), but also the formula was garbage.

Fun to watch, though. I have a buddy who has a giant chunk including the headlight of #26 that he bribed a crew member for when McNish slammed into a GT3 car at Laguna Seca chasing the CLK-GTR. My favorite (aside from my general Porsche fanboy status) was the Morgan Aero GT-1 because it looked so bonkers.

[Philjia]

Also where very fast cars are concerned, letting the manufacturers do what the want has historically had a tendency to produce vehicles that were, frankly, insanely dangerous, and F1 in particular has swung somewhat wildly between "dull" and "exciting in large part because you might get to see someone die in real time".

Speaking of Newey, he told Mercedes to withdraw the amazing flying Mercedes CLR back in 1999 and they didn't. Miracle that nobody was killed.

Well, that whole formula was flawed. The CLR-GTR wasn't the only GT-1 car to achieve lift off, it was just the only one to land in a tree. The Porsche GT-1 also took flight and slammed back to the ground. They banned tunnel bodies that were common on GTP cars and the result was a little air gets underneath and it's up up and away. So it wasn't just the arms race that the F1-GTR started and then went coo coo bananas when Porsche and Mercedes and Toyota started dumping money in 'production' cars (Toyota never even made 25 fake ones, just one 'road legal' one that never left their headquarters), but also the formula was garbage.

It didn't help that the Mercedes engineers decided to give the the car both a neutral rake and an unusually short wheelbase despite Le Mans having a number of hills and slightly rough sections that could cause the nose to go up and turn into a wing.

[Cannot think of a name]

Well, that whole formula was flawed. The CLR-GTR wasn't the only GT-1 car to achieve lift off, it was just the only one to land in a tree. The Porsche GT-1 also took flight and slammed back to the ground. They banned tunnel bodies that were common on GTP cars and the result was a little air gets underneath and it's up up and away. So it wasn't just the arms race that the F1-GTR started and then went coo coo bananas when Porsche and Mercedes and Toyota started dumping money in 'production' cars (Toyota never even made 25 fake ones, just one 'road legal' one that never left their headquarters), but also the formula was garbage.

It didn't help that the Mercedes engineers decided to give the the car both a neutral rake and an unusually short wheelbase despite Le Mans having a number of hills and slightly rough sections that could cause the nose to go up and turn into a wing.

I was talking to someone involved in GT1 at the time (at Laguna Seca, I don't run in those circles but at a track like that you just end up standing next to a race engineer watching cars go down the corkscrew, or people working on a historic 917 like a group of guys working on a Camaro in their front yard, dumping their beer out so they could use the bottle to see if the second fuel pump was working properly...god I love that track) who talked about how the Mercedes was built to the margins, a pure letter of the law kind of build. It was an insane car that by any rights should be. Toyota did away with all pretext and just remade a GTP.

But the Porsche went flying too at Road America. Same conditions, going over a rise in dirty air, gets under the car and up up and away. Not the same kind of hang time as the CLK GTR, though. You had to imagine there were a few people in the paddock having 1955 flashbacks when that car treed itself.

[Hirota]

Obviously I haven't seen any of it, but the racers on Twitter including Mario Andretti have been heaping praise on Hamilton himself handling defeat gracefully, I guess even if Team Mercedes isn't.

Was this before or after the radio messages where he complained about the race being manipulated to make him lose came out?

I suspect that the racers - just like most rational human beings really - will understand that comments made during a high pressure occasion (such as...oh I don't know, driving a Formula 1 car) will understand that what gets says in the cockpit is a result of the pressure, not the person.

Meanwhile Mercedes have to submit an appeal by tommorrow if they still wish to continue down this path. I'm personally very torn over this. On one hand, I understand why they would feel aggrieved - they lost it not because Red Bull were the faster car in the race, or had the better strategy. On the other hand I don't see them winning, I see it causing this tension to carry on into next year.

All I know is I don't think Netflix expected a court room drama show, but they could be at risk of getting one if it plays out. There is a school of thought that the drama is good for the sport - it keeps people talking about it. I'm not so sure, although I suppose everyone does remember the great battles between drivers - Prost vs Senna, Hunt vs Lauda (and the appeals I mentioned before). Maybe Hamilton vs Verstappen will enter the same pantheon of F1 folklore.

[Vassenor]

Was this before or after the radio messages where he complained about the race being manipulated to make him lose came out?

I suspect that the racers - just like most rational human beings really - will understand that comments made during a high pressure occasion (such as...oh I don't know, driving a Formula 1 car) will understand that what gets says in the cockpit is a result of the pressure, not the person.

Meanwhile Mercedes have to submit an appeal by tommorrow if they still wish to continue down this path. I'm personally very torn over this. On one hand, I understand why they would feel aggrieved - they lost it not because Red Bull were the faster car in the race, or had the better strategy. On the other hand I don't see them winning, I see it causing this tension to carry on into next year.

All I know is I don't think Netflix expected a court room drama show, but they could be at risk of getting one if it plays out. There is a school of thought that the drama is good for the sport - it keeps people talking about it. I'm not so sure, although I suppose everyone does remember the great battles between drivers - Prost vs Senna, Hunt vs Lauda (and the appeals I mentioned before). Maybe Hamilton vs Verstappen will enter the same pantheon of F1 folklore.

If the Red Bull car wasn't faster how was Max able to get past Lewis on the restart and stay there?

[Rick Perry]

Does anyone want to do a F1 session prediction?
Here is the schedule for next year

20 March – Bahrain
27 March – Saudi Arabia
10 April – Australia
24 April – Emilia Romagna
8 May – Miami
22 May – Spain
29 May – Monaco
12 June – Azerbaijan
19 June – Canada
3 July – United Kingdom
10 July – Austria
24 July – France
31 July – Hungary
28 August – Belgium
4 September – Netherlands
11 September – Russia
2 October – Singapore
9 October – Japan
23 October – USA
30 October – Mexico
13 November – Brazil
20 November – Abu Dhabi

[Hirota]

I suspect that the racers - just like most rational human beings really - will understand that comments made during a high pressure occasion (such as...oh I don't know, driving a Formula 1 car) will understand that what gets says in the cockpit is a result of the pressure, not the person.

Meanwhile Mercedes have to submit an appeal by tommorrow if they still wish to continue down this path. I'm personally very torn over this. On one hand, I understand why they would feel aggrieved - they lost it not because Red Bull were the faster car in the race, or had the better strategy. On the other hand I don't see them winning, I see it causing this tension to carry on into next year.

All I know is I don't think Netflix expected a court room drama show, but they could be at risk of getting one if it plays out. There is a school of thought that the drama is good for the sport - it keeps people talking about it. I'm not so sure, although I suppose everyone does remember the great battles between drivers - Prost vs Senna, Hunt vs Lauda (and the appeals I mentioned before). Maybe Hamilton vs Verstappen will enter the same pantheon of F1 folklore.

If the Red Bull car wasn't faster how was Max able to get past Lewis on the restart and stay there?

Aside from the fact Lewis had a hint of a chance to overtake back on the last lap, 40+ Lap Old Hards versus a couple of Lap Old Softs is too much of a difference even with the performance advantage Hamilton had with his merc against Red Bull in the race.

Very dumb questions, very obvious answer.

[Cannot think of a name]

Was this before or after the radio messages where he complained about the race being manipulated to make him lose came out?

I suspect that the racers - just like most rational human beings really - will understand that comments made during a high pressure occasion (such as...oh I don't know, driving a Formula 1 car) will understand that what gets says in the cockpit is a result of the pressure, not the person.

Meanwhile Mercedes have to submit an appeal by tommorrow if they still wish to continue down this path. I'm personally very torn over this. On one hand, I understand why they would feel aggrieved - they lost it not because Red Bull were the faster car in the race, or had the better strategy. On the other hand I don't see them winning, I see it causing this tension to carry on into next year.

All I know is I don't think Netflix expected a court room drama show, but they could be at risk of getting one if it plays out. There is a school of thought that the drama is good for the sport - it keeps people talking about it. I'm not so sure, although I suppose everyone does remember the great battles between drivers - Prost vs Senna, Hunt vs Lauda (and the appeals I mentioned before). Maybe Hamilton vs Verstappen will enter the same pantheon of F1 folklore.

The first televised NASCAR race had a fist fight, F1 needs to up their game...

Does anyone want to do a F1 session prediction?
Here is the schedule for next year

20 March – Bahrain
27 March – Saudi Arabia
10 April – Australia
24 April – Emilia Romagna
8 May – Miami
22 May – Spain
29 May – Monaco
12 June – Azerbaijan
19 June – Canada
3 July – United Kingdom
10 July – Austria
24 July – France
31 July – Hungary
28 August – Belgium
4 September – Netherlands
11 September – Russia
2 October – Singapore
9 October – Japan
23 October – USA
30 October – Mexico
13 November – Brazil
20 November – Abu Dhabi

The Miami race in a parking lot like a club karting race. Pinnacle of motorsports.

[Rick Perry]

Like homsted Miami?

[The Two Jerseys]

I suspect that the racers - just like most rational human beings really - will understand that comments made during a high pressure occasion (such as...oh I don't know, driving a Formula 1 car) will understand that what gets says in the cockpit is a result of the pressure, not the person.

Meanwhile Mercedes have to submit an appeal by tommorrow if they still wish to continue down this path. I'm personally very torn over this. On one hand, I understand why they would feel aggrieved - they lost it not because Red Bull were the faster car in the race, or had the better strategy. On the other hand I don't see them winning, I see it causing this tension to carry on into next year.

All I know is I don't think Netflix expected a court room drama show, but they could be at risk of getting one if it plays out. There is a school of thought that the drama is good for the sport - it keeps people talking about it. I'm not so sure, although I suppose everyone does remember the great battles between drivers - Prost vs Senna, Hunt vs Lauda (and the appeals I mentioned before). Maybe Hamilton vs Verstappen will enter the same pantheon of F1 folklore.

The first televised NASCAR race had a fist fight, F1 needs to up their game...

I'd pay money to see Max throw a helmet at Lewis and their crews brawling in the pits.

Does anyone want to do a F1 session prediction?
Here is the schedule for next year

20 March – Bahrain
27 March – Saudi Arabia
10 April – Australia
24 April – Emilia Romagna
8 May – Miami
22 May – Spain
29 May – Monaco
12 June – Azerbaijan
19 June – Canada
3 July – United Kingdom
10 July – Austria
24 July – France
31 July – Hungary
28 August – Belgium
4 September – Netherlands
11 September – Russia
2 October – Singapore
9 October – Japan
23 October – USA
30 October – Mexico
13 November – Brazil
20 November – Abu Dhabi

The Miami race in a parking lot like a club karting race. Pinnacle of motorsports.

Are cookie-cutter Tilkedromes any better than a parking lot though?

[Vassenor]

The first televised NASCAR race had a fist fight, F1 needs to up their game...

I'd pay money to see Max throw a helmet at Lewis and their crews brawling in the pits.

The Miami race in a parking lot like a club karting race. Pinnacle of motorsports.

Are cookie-cutter Tilkedromes any better than a parking lot though?

I mean look what happened last time F1 raced in a parking lot.

[The Two Jerseys]

I'd pay money to see Max throw a helmet at Lewis and their crews brawling in the pits.

Are cookie-cutter Tilkedromes any better than a parking lot though?

I mean look what happened last time F1 raced in a parking lot.

That was the race that drove F1 out of the US for 20 years, right?

[Hirota]

Mercedes-AMG Petronas released a statement earlier today.

Dear Formula 1 community and fans,

We left Abu Dhabi in disbelief of what we had just witnessed. Of course, it's part of the game to lose a race, but it's something different when you lose faith in racing.

Together with Lewis, we have deliberated carefully over how to respond to the events at the Formula 1 season finale. We have always been guided by our love of this sport and we believe that every competition should be won on merit. In the race on Sunday many felt, us included, that the way things unfolded was not right.

The reason we protested the race result on Sunday was because the Safety Car regulations were applied in a new way that affected the race result, after Lewis had been in a commanding lead and on course to win the World Championship.

We appealed in the interest of sporting fairness, and we have since been in a constructive dialogue with the FIA and Formula 1 to create clarity for the future, so that all competitors know the rules under which they are racing, and how they will be enforced. Thus, we welcome the decision by the FIA to install a commission to thoroughly analyse what happened in Abu Dhabi and to improve the robustness of rules, governance and decision making in Formula 1. We also welcome that they have invited the teams and drivers to take part.

The Mercedes-AMG Petronas team will actively work with this commission to build a better Formula 1 - for every team and every fan who loves this sport as much as we do. We will hold the FIA accountable for this process and we hereby withdraw our appeal.

To Max Verstappen and Red Bull Racing: we would like to express our sincere respect for your achievements this season. You made this Formula 1 Championship title fight truly epic. Max, we congratulate you and your entire team. We look forward to taking the fight to you on the track next season.

And lastly, even though this Drivers' Championship did not end the way we hoped, we could not be prouder of our team.

Lewis, you are the greatest racer in the history of Formula 1 and you drove your heart out for every lap of this incredible season. You're a flawless sportsman on and off the track and you delivered a faultless performance. As a pure competitor and as a role model for millions around the world, we salute you.

Valtteri, you have been such an important part of this team, delivering five Constructors' Championships in five seasons. Thank you for your remarkable contribution to our motorsport history. Kiitos, Valtteri.

Finally, to every one of the skilled and passionate women and men of the Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team in Brackley and High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth: you've written an historic chapter in the Silver Arrow story by winning the eighth Constructors' Championship - in a row. This is an unprecedented achievement. In simple words: it's awesome. You are awesome.

So, no appeal, and based on this, I'd suggest Hamilton was one of those internally who didn't want to pursue things further...he did much the same in 2007 if I recall.

[Vassenor]

I mean look what happened last time F1 raced in a parking lot.

That was the race that drove F1 out of the US for 20 years, right?

Not really?

[Rick Perry]

Why did they want to go to Miami?
Why not Daytona?
I understand they want my Americans but out of all the tracks they pick Miami?
They had Sonoma, Daytona, Watkins Glen, Road America, New Hampshire/Loudon, Atlanta. More that I forgot about. And they chose Miami.

[The Two Jerseys]

Why did they want to go to Miami?
Why not Daytona?
I understand they want my Americans but out of all the tracks they pick Miami?
They had Sonoma, Daytona, Watkins Glen, Road America, New Hampshire/Loudon, Atlanta. More that I forgot about. And they chose Miami.

The 11 degree banking at Indy was steep by F1 standards, they probably couldn't cope with the banking at Daytona.

[Rick Perry]

Why did they want to go to Miami?
Why not Daytona?
I understand they want my Americans but out of all the tracks they pick Miami?
They had Sonoma, Daytona, Watkins Glen, Road America, New Hampshire/Loudon, Atlanta. More that I forgot about. And they chose Miami.

The 11 degree banking at Indy was steep by F1 standards, they probably couldn't cope with the banking at Daytona.

New Hampshire might be a good change

[Vassenor]

Why did they want to go to Miami?
Why not Daytona?
I understand they want my Americans but out of all the tracks they pick Miami?
They had Sonoma, Daytona, Watkins Glen, Road America, New Hampshire/Loudon, Atlanta. More that I forgot about. And they chose Miami.

The 11 degree banking at Indy was steep by F1 standards, they probably couldn't cope with the banking at Daytona.

Reminder that it wasn't just the bank angle that fucked up Indy '05. It was the fact the asphalt had been recently diamond-ground and no-one thought to tell Michelin.

[Rick Perry]

Watkins Glen would be a good one. Especially if the use the 'bus stop'

[Rick Perry]

Road Atlanta also would be a good one.

[Vassenor]

F1 cars on proper Le Mans when

[Costa Fierro]

The way F1 works has resulted in the sport being in a place where either you've found a loophole in the rules that allows you be miles faster than anyone else, or you haven't. Only four out of the ten competing teams won one of the 22 GPs in the 2021 season, and only two won more than one. Contrast with, say, the 2021 British Touring Car Championship (Yes, I am biased), where eight out of fifteen teams won at least one of the thirty races, using six of the eight different cars used in the series, and all four engines.

Reminds me of Supercars when the Mustang was first introduced and Holden-Red Bull Racing spent the entirety of that season just bitching and complaining about them because Scott McLaughlin just kept winning races (save for Surfer's Paradise when he decided to crash into a wall and fling various suspension components into neighbouring apartments).

2020 was a bit of a non-event really but this year's season, unsurprisingly, has seen the same team that bitched about parity and allegedly unfair advantages the Mustangs supposedly had winning most of the races when their teammates weren't actively trying to run each other off the road.

But if you wanted the golden era of bitching, the ATCC in the Group A era is the best.

[Rick Perry]

The way F1 works has resulted in the sport being in a place where either you've found a loophole in the rules that allows you be miles faster than anyone else, or you haven't. Only four out of the ten competing teams won one of the 22 GPs in the 2021 season, and only two won more than one. Contrast with, say, the 2021 British Touring Car Championship (Yes, I am biased), where eight out of fifteen teams won at least one of the thirty races, using six of the eight different cars used in the series, and all four engines.

Reminds me of Supercars when the Mustang was first introduced and Holden-Red Bull Racing spent the entirety of that season just bitching and complaining about them because Scott McLaughlin just kept winning races (save for Surfer's Paradise when he decided to crash into a wall and fling various suspension components into neighbouring apartments).

2020 was a bit of a non-event really but this year's season, unsurprisingly, has seen the same team that bitched about parity and allegedly unfair advantages the Mustangs supposedly had winning most of the races when their teammates weren't actively trying to run each other off the road.

But if you wanted the golden era of bitching, the ATCC in the Group A era is the best.

I personally am not a big fan of Mustang but at least they go fast

[Rick Perry]

what is your Favorite retired/dead (oof) driver?