Re: Claim on Columbus

[Vlad Tepes Stan Account]

Also - and I don't know why more people don't seem to realize this - Greenland is part of the American continent.

Like, it's an island. But so is what Columbus discovered.

With the important qualifiers that A) Columbus was the known European to have landed on the mainland of South America - on the Paria Peninsula in what's now northeastern Venezuela in 1498 during his third voyage, though B) John Cabot seems to have been the first post-Norse European to have reached the North American mainland (somewhere in eastern Canada) in 1497, and C) Norse explorers almost certainly did likewise, since it would be a bit difficult to avoid what's now Labrador if you were setting up a settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and the relevant sagas note the existence of a 'Markland' between 'Helluland' (most likely Baffin Island, where there's some good archaeological evidence of more transient Norse activity) and 'Vinland' (most likely Newfoundland).

So Columbus can reasonably take credit for discovering South America; Cabot and earlier Norse explorers should take the credit for North America

As to the archaeological evidence for Norse settlement of the Americas, and the recent Nature article dating L’Anse aux Meadows... I know I'm biased, but archaeology rocks.

Archaeology? I can dig it

[Ifreann]

Also - and I don't know why more people don't seem to realize this - Greenland is part of the American continent.

Like, it's an island. But so is what Columbus discovered.

With the important qualifiers that A) Columbus was the known European to have landed on the mainland of South America - on the Paria Peninsula in what's now northeastern Venezuela in 1498 during his third voyage, though B) John Cabot seems to have been the first post-Norse European to have reached the North American mainland (somewhere in eastern Canada) in 1497, and C) Norse explorers almost certainly did likewise, since it would be a bit difficult to avoid what's now Labrador if you were setting up a settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and the relevant sagas note the existence of a 'Markland' between 'Helluland' (most likely Baffin Island, where there's some good archaeological evidence of more transient Norse activity) and 'Vinland' (most likely Newfoundland).

So Columbus can reasonably take credit for discovering South America; Cabot and earlier Norse explorers should take the credit for North America

As to the archaeological evidence for Norse settlement of the Americas, and the recent Nature article dating L’Anse aux Meadows... I know I'm biased, but archaeology rocks.

It was trees, not rocks.

[Vlad Tepes Stan Account]

I mean without him, you might not have had the United States of America.

Doubtful. History is not the product of Great Men, without Columbus another person would have filled in the spot and accordingly credited just the same.

Great Men have a huge role in shaping history. Not everyone can be Napoleon. Not every giant of history can simply be replaced with someone else and get the same result. There are giants of figures in history who reshaped the world in their aftermath and handwaving this away is just as erroneous as thinking all history is dictated by such figures.*


*This isn't me saying that Columbus was such a figure.

[Dakini]

Also - and I don't know why more people don't seem to realize this - Greenland is part of the American continent.

Like, it's an island. But so is what Columbus discovered.

With the important qualifiers that A) Columbus was the known European to have landed on the mainland of South America - on the Paria Peninsula in what's now northeastern Venezuela in 1498 during his third voyage, though B) John Cabot seems to have been the first post-Norse European to have reached the North American mainland (somewhere in eastern Canada) in 1497, and C) Norse explorers almost certainly did likewise, since it would be a bit difficult to avoid what's now Labrador if you were setting up a settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and the relevant sagas note the existence of a 'Markland' between 'Helluland' (most likely Baffin Island, where there's some good archaeological evidence of more transient Norse activity) and 'Vinland' (most likely Newfoundland).

So Columbus can reasonably take credit for discovering South America; Cabot and earlier Norse explorers should take the credit for North America

As to the archaeological evidence for Norse settlement of the Americas, and the recent Nature article dating L’Anse aux Meadows... I know I'm biased, but archaeology rocks.

Archaeology is definitely cool.

[Ethel mermania]

With the important qualifiers that A) Columbus was the known European to have landed on the mainland of South America - on the Paria Peninsula in what's now northeastern Venezuela in 1498 during his third voyage, though B) John Cabot seems to have been the first post-Norse European to have reached the North American mainland (somewhere in eastern Canada) in 1497, and C) Norse explorers almost certainly did likewise, since it would be a bit difficult to avoid what's now Labrador if you were setting up a settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, and the relevant sagas note the existence of a 'Markland' between 'Helluland' (most likely Baffin Island, where there's some good archaeological evidence of more transient Norse activity) and 'Vinland' (most likely Newfoundland).

So Columbus can reasonably take credit for discovering South America; Cabot and earlier Norse explorers should take the credit for North America

As to the archaeological evidence for Norse settlement of the Americas, and the recent Nature article dating L’Anse aux Meadows... I know I'm biased, but archaeology rocks.

Archaeology is definitely cool.

Dirty, dirty job.

[The Two Jerseys]

I choose Option 5: embezzle the credits and flee to Vulcan where the supernatural beings don't have an extradition treaty.

Live long and prosper, mofos!

[Tierra Fuego]

The Spanish claim seems more legitimate since the country exists then and now, and ""that he was hired by Spain to carry out the project and that Spain profited by it. If an immigrant carries out some action in service of a military, we don't punish or glorify the country he came from. And I agree with The Vic that it's more appropriate to pay reperations than to recieve credits for this. I'm not sure if the implication is that Spain will be paying credits if the claim is dishonorable, but if they would recieve compensation for his legacy regardless then I abstain in protest. The catholic church will also pay reperations.

[Stellar Colonies]

I choose Option 5: embezzle the credits and flee to Vulcan where the supernatural beings don't have an extradition treaty.

Live long and prosper, mofos!

I recommend barricading yourself in every seven years.

[Chan Island]

The King of Spain sanctioned Columbus for his cruelty to the natives. So do with that information, what you will.

Doubtful. History is not the product of Great Men, without Columbus another person would have filled in the spot and accordingly credited just the same.

Great Men have a huge role in shaping history. Not everyone can be Napoleon. Not every giant of history can simply be replaced with someone else and get the same result. There are giants of figures in history who reshaped the world in their aftermath and handwaving this away is just as erroneous as thinking all history is dictated by such figures.*


*This isn't me saying that Columbus was such a figure.

Ehhhh, you're half right. The details would vary but much of the broad strokes would remain the same. Napoleon led a revolutionary France that was very strong and under considerable attack- the wars would still happen without him, just the battles would have been in different places and who knows what the precise details of the outcome would be. It was basically impossible for France to win outright against all of Europe, that it happened 2 or 3 years earlier or later isn't as big a deal as you think (in the near term... things get complicated extrapolating).

I dunno, that dictator witch from several IM threads back.

Witch Queen Annie Holstadt?

Obligatory post where I say we kill her to unite us all in this debate.

[Redeemed Britannia]

Ignoring the fact Columbus was a piece of shit who was widely criticised even in his own time and who essentially set the precedent for some of the most horrific shit humans have done to each other, and ignoring the fact he was not planning on "discovering" the New World and didn't even know he had done so (and ignoring other people who've been to the New World before him), if someone was going to claim him for their own it'd have to be Spain. Italy as a unified polity did not exist (nor was Italian unification really on the agenda at the time? I think?) and he was working on behalf of Spaniards, who benefited greatly from his actions and the stage that he helped set.