WWII: British Empire Supercharged

[Kannap]

Hitler's silly decisions at it again, tbf. The Luftwaffe had rendered the RAF largely incapacitated but the RAF managed an inconsequential bombing on Berlin that angered Hitler and he changed his sights on London and British cities in retaliation. The concentration on cities allowed the RAF to recuperate and fight back.

Yes, but the Nazis were unaware of that, as their intelligence operations in the UK had been utterly decimated.

Sure, but if your goal is to incapacitate the RAF, you'd simply not stop bombing their bases to attack London instead.

[Heloin]

Like just about every alt history scenario for WW2, Germany loses.

Even if Hitler defeats the British, all empires come crumbling down. Hitler dies - his higher up followers at the time of his death split the empire into pieces among them in disagreement over who should take Hitler's place. Fighting ensues between them while uprisings happen underneath them. Eventually the United States and Soviets step in as opportunists to help the rebels, setting up quasi puppet empires and a cold war begins

Nazi Germany was a ticking economic time bomb that was always going to fail. The Soviets planned to invaded Germany when the Soviets were ready so that war was always going to happen. There’s a very good reason why I hate alt-history. It relies on everyone doing something they wouldn’t do and generally ignores the mundane reasons why things actually happened.

[Kannap]

Even if Hitler defeats the British, all empires come crumbling down. Hitler dies - his higher up followers at the time of his death split the empire into pieces among them in disagreement over who should take Hitler's place. Fighting ensues between them while uprisings happen underneath them. Eventually the United States and Soviets step in as opportunists to help the rebels, setting up quasi puppet empires and a cold war begins

Nazi Germany was a ticking economic time bomb that was always going to fail. The Soviets planned to invaded Germany when the Soviets were ready so that war was always going to happen. There’s a very good reason why I hate alt-history. It relies on everyone doing something they wouldn’t do and generally ignores the mundane reasons why things actually happened.

As always, IM's hypotheticals are weak because they ignore everything.

[The New California Republic]

They were building landing craft and pressing various boats and ships into war service, if push came to shove they could have landed and paradropped significant men and material.

I laughed a bit too hard at paradropped. Airborne infantry is generally the worst option available, the Germans determined from the Battle of Crete that while it can work it’s so rarely worth it. The success of airborne in Normandy with the allies was mostly do to how much the airborne landing fucked up creating chaos behind German lines, the allies would determine after market garden that it really is almost never worth it to use airborne as anything other then ground infantry.

You prob shouldn't laugh at all about it, as for creating bridgeheads they can be very valuable if used at the correct time and place, and when support is predicted to arrive.

I'm aware. I was working off the assumption that the preconditions had been satisfied.

That would not have changed enough.

It may have, we will never know either way.

Yes, but all the Nazis needed to do was create a corridor. S-boats and U-boats and air cover could do that.

No, they couldn’t. Allow for a brief landing maybe, but the channel spent the war firmly under British control for more reasons then just the RAF.

Yes, they could. The air power element can make or break landing operations, coupled with the S- and U-boats would have meant that the Royal Navy would have needed to resort to suicide runs against the corridor.

No, just the destruction of the RAF, one single difference, as that was the only precondition the Nazis had for invading, so if we are assuming the invasion is going ahead then we can assume that condition has been met.

Sea Lion had no chance of ever succeeding. If the RAF was crushed then the Germans would be able to cross a relatively small number of men who would be slaughtered. If they survived the channel would still become to much of a death trap with the Luftwaffe and the Royal Navy that supplies would make Stalingrad look well feed. The best case scenario for Germany is thousands of Germans dead in England.

You have zero basis for maintaining that their troops would immediately be cut off. Against air power without support, which would happen in the Channel, the Royal Navy would be decimated. Every time the Royal Navy was against air power without support the results were disastrous.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I cant see the British winning on their own but i cant see them being outright defeated either, they might be able to force a stalemate for long enough to retain their colonies and dominions intact at the end. And then i guess we have a cold war type deal of the British Empire on one side and Axis Europe on the other. However in Asia i think they will be hard-pressed and the Japanese might be able to overrun them in places like Burma if they dont have to worry about America etc getting involved.

However all three big axis powers were economic time bombs waiting to happen so eventually they might start collapsing if they cant get access to enough resources to sustain them, the Germans for example had to rely on lots of war looting to keep themselves going in the war and if they cant do that eventually they will face issues.

But then again i just cant see a realistic scenario where the likes of the US and USSR don't get involve, the situation here is a bit bare bones and could use more fleshing out. For example the Germans are always going to attack Russia, its at the heart of their ideology and goals. Japan needs to attack America as America is embargoing them alongside the Dutch and others crippling their economy, and they see America as a threat. And the USSR would most likely invade German Occupied Europe eventually to remove such a threat or to take advantage of their social and economic collapse.

Also its not mentioned here but if if the war continues as normal up until the fall of France, that means Japan is still in war in China, so Britain would still have the Chinese as allies to fight Japan etc

[Heloin]

I’m already sick of this. No, there is no scenario were Sea Lion works that doesn’t rely on a complete lack of understanding of the British and German position and ability before 1941. The only place the Germans had a chance in bringing the British to the negotiation table for peace was Malta and Suez. The Battle of Britain in it’s totality was an idiotic waste of resources by the Germans even if they did manage to crush the RAF.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I’m already sick of this. No, there is no scenario were Sea Lion works that doesn’t rely on a complete lack of understanding of the British and German position and ability before 1941. The only place the Germans had a chance in bringing the British to the negotiation table for peace was Malta and Suez. The Battle of Britain in it’s totality was an idiotic waste of resources by the Germans even if they did manage to crush the RAF.

But in hoi4 i can set up a naval invasion from Dunkirk and send 15 motorised divisions across, easy-peasy

[Heloin]

I’m already sick of this. No, there is no scenario were Sea Lion works that doesn’t rely on a complete lack of understanding of the British and German position and ability before 1941. The only place the Germans had a chance in bringing the British to the negotiation table for peace was Malta and Suez. The Battle of Britain in it’s totality was an idiotic waste of resources by the Germans even if they did manage to crush the RAF.

But in hoi4 i can set up a naval invasion from Dunkirk and send 15 motorised divisions across, easy-peasy

I hate to break it to you Husker, but HoI isn’t actually realistic. I’m so sorry you had to find out this way.

[The New California Republic]

I’m already sick of this. No, there is no scenario were Sea Lion works that doesn’t rely on a complete lack of understanding of the British and German position and ability before 1941.

Tbh it might be because I've got a wider understanding of the performance of the forces involved that makes it feasible, such as the aforementioned fact that the Royal Navy generally was annihilated when used in areas of strong enemy air power.

[The Huskar Social Union]

But in hoi4 i can set up a naval invasion from Dunkirk and send 15 motorised divisions across, easy-peasy

I hate to break it to you Husker, but HoI isn’t actually realistic. I’m so sorry you had to find out this way.

w.. what. what do you mean.. its not realistic...

[The New California Republic]

However all three big axis powers were economic time bombs waiting to happen so eventually they might start collapsing if they cant get access to enough resources to sustain them, the Germans for example had to rely on lots of war looting to keep themselves going in the war and if they cant do that eventually they will face issues.

It got to the stage where the Germans and Japanese considered it worth it to send long range aircraft and U-boats thousands of miles to each other to exchange goods, such was the desperation after a certain point.

[Janpia]

I’m already sick of this. No, there is no scenario were Sea Lion works that doesn’t rely on a complete lack of understanding of the British and German position and ability before 1941.

Tbh it might be because I've got a wider understanding of the performance of the forces involved that makes it feasible, such as the afotementioned fact that the Royal Navy generally was annihilated when used in areas of strong enemy air power.

That aint gonna happend since Germany will NEVER EVER gain air superiority. Oh, and during the battle of britain, those german losses are way bigger than british loses (haha radar go ping).

It also the same goes to the germans. The Kriegsmarine would be annhilated when used with supreme air power. (which is proven)

[Picairn]

Sea Lion is fiction, though I wonder if the economic blockade and starvation plan concocted by Germany would have worked out if the US and USSR hadn't been involved and therefore the German war machine can fully concentrate on building submarines and planes for the Britain front.

[The New California Republic]

Tbh it might be because I've got a wider understanding of the performance of the forces involved that makes it feasible, such as the afotementioned fact that the Royal Navy generally was annihilated when used in areas of strong enemy air power.

That aint gonna happend since Germany will NEVER EVER gain air superiority. Oh, and during the battle of britain, those german losses are way bigger than british loses (haha radar go ping).

It also the same goes to the germans. The Kriegsmarine would be annhilated when used with supreme air power. (which is proven)

Like I said, since the invasion would only have happened after the destruction of the RAF, and since we are assuming for argument's sake that the invasion was going ahead, the RAF is thus out of the picture.

[Ethel mermania]

Soviets won the war in Europe. Without them they are speaking German in london.

[Picairn]

I said it in my first post of this thread, but I'm going to expand on it: Japan. Since Britain faces the Axis alone in this scenario, Japan's Navy could easily attack and occupy British colonies in South East Asia (imagine if they had attacked Singapore with the full force of the Kido Butai), isolate Australia and New Zealand by taking Port Moresby and controlling the Coral Sea (since without US ships the region is wide open), and expand into the Indian Ocean. They sank HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales, rendering the whole Indian Ocean without any capital ships, and finally launching an invasion of Ceylon (Sri Lanka), blockading India from supplying the mother country. Game over.

Without US naval supremacy Britain would have lost access to its Asian and Oceanian possessions.

[Thermodolia]

Yes, but the Nazis were unaware of that, as their intelligence operations in the UK had been utterly decimated.

Sure, but if your goal is to incapacitate the RAF, you'd simply not stop bombing their bases to attack London instead.

They thought they had. Their intelligence was fed lies. If you are getting information that the RAF is gone than you are going to switch up your tactics

[Thermodolia]

Even if Hitler defeats the British, all empires come crumbling down. Hitler dies - his higher up followers at the time of his death split the empire into pieces among them in disagreement over who should take Hitler's place. Fighting ensues between them while uprisings happen underneath them. Eventually the United States and Soviets step in as opportunists to help the rebels, setting up quasi puppet empires and a cold war begins

Nazi Germany was a ticking economic time bomb that was always going to fail. The Soviets planned to invaded Germany when the Soviets were ready so that war was always going to happen. There’s a very good reason why I hate alt-history. It relies on everyone doing something they wouldn’t do and generally ignores the mundane reasons why things actually happened.

Yup. The Soviets where creating plans for an invasion in 1939. Those plans wouldn’t be ready for a few years, the earliest estimate is 1944 or 1945.

And most likely the UK could definitely hold out until 1945. Which means the Soviets would end up pushing against a largely undefended front, assuming the Nazis fully focus on the Brits

[Thermodolia]

I said it in my first post of this thread, but I'm going to expand on it: Japan. Since Britain faces the Axis alone in this scenario, Japan's Navy could easily attack and occupy British colonies in South East Asia (imagine if they had attacked Singapore with the full force of the Kido Butai), isolate Australia and New Zealand by taking Port Moresby and controlling the Coral Sea (since without US ships the region is wide open), and expand into the Indian Ocean. They sank HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales, rendering the whole Indian Ocean without any capital ships, and finally launching an invasion of Ceylon (Sri Lanka), blockading India from supplying the mother country. Game over.

Without US naval supremacy Britain would have lost access to its Asian and Oceanian possessions.

Ya the only winner in this situation is Japan. Germany was going to collapse or get invaded by the USSR at some point. It was just highly unlikely that Stalin would let Hitler live.

[Heloin]

I said it in my first post of this thread, but I'm going to expand on it: Japan. Since Britain faces the Axis alone in this scenario, Japan's Navy could easily attack and occupy British colonies in South East Asia (imagine if they had attacked Singapore with the full force of the Kido Butai), isolate Australia and New Zealand by taking Port Moresby and controlling the Coral Sea (since without US ships the region is wide open), and expand into the Indian Ocean. They sank HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales, rendering the whole Indian Ocean without any capital ships, and finally launching an invasion of Ceylon (Sri Lanka), blockading India from supplying the mother country. Game over.

Without US naval supremacy Britain would have lost access to its Asian and Oceanian possessions.

Ya the only winner in this situation is Japan. Germany was going to collapse or get invaded by the USSR at some point. It was just highly unlikely that Stalin would let Hitler live.

Then Japan still loses to China.

[Emeraldisia]

If the British Army was the strength of America's, and had the numbers of the Soviets, alongside the British naval supremacy; yeah, they're winning by '42.

[Emeraldisia]

I said it in my first post of this thread, but I'm going to expand on it: Japan. Since Britain faces the Axis alone in this scenario, Japan's Navy could easily attack and occupy British colonies in South East Asia (imagine if they had attacked Singapore with the full force of the Kido Butai), isolate Australia and New Zealand by taking Port Moresby and controlling the Coral Sea (since without US ships the region is wide open), and expand into the Indian Ocean. They sank HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales, rendering the whole Indian Ocean without any capital ships, and finally launching an invasion of Ceylon (Sri Lanka), blockading India from supplying the mother country. Game over.

Without US naval supremacy Britain would have lost access to its Asian and Oceanian possessions.

Ya the only winner in this situation is Japan. Germany was going to collapse or get invaded by the USSR at some point. It was just highly unlikely that Stalin would let Hitler live.

Wasn't Japan fairly neutral in the whole "invade the Soviets go brrr" thing for lack of a better term?

[Thermodolia]

Ya the only winner in this situation is Japan. Germany was going to collapse or get invaded by the USSR at some point. It was just highly unlikely that Stalin would let Hitler live.

Wasn't Japan fairly neutral in the whole "invade the Soviets go brrr" thing for lack of a better term?

Japan and the Soviets had a non aggression treaty that lasted until 1945. The Japanese where extremely fearful of the Soviets because of that time the Soviets handed them their ass at Khalkhin Gol

[Thermodolia]

Ya the only winner in this situation is Japan. Germany was going to collapse or get invaded by the USSR at some point. It was just highly unlikely that Stalin would let Hitler live.

Then Japan still loses to China.

Depends. If Japan extracts concessions from the UK prior to 1945 they could end up being able to move through the Raj and attempt to flank the Chinese allies.

Otherwise they wouldn’t just be facing China but the might of the Soviet Union after they got done with Germany.

So realistically Germany would probably CTE around 1950 with Japan kicking the bucket around 1955-1960.

More than likely Japan would sign a treaty that kicks them out of mainland China and Korea but allows them to maintain their islands they took from the Europeans plus Southeast Asia.

So in this scenario you’d have the Japanese fighting the Soviet and Chinese backed forces in Southeast Asia, particularly in Burma and Indochina.

[Dakini]

However, only the British Empire (no USA, no Soviet Union) opposes the Axis. However, all subjects and citizens of the Empire whether or not in a settler colony are 100 percent loyal to the British Empire, really want and need Britain to win and there are no independence movements whatsoever. In this timeline, Britain can try to literally arm up all of India, all of its African colonies etc with no political considerations whatsoever for dealing with insurrections after. In other words, this is Britain that can and will fight at full power.

So are we talking about only the colonies or dominions that were still colonies or dominions and not already independent in 1939?

In which case, Canada would be out (except Newfoundland, which wasn't part of Canada at the time). Canada declared war on Germany a day after the UK in World War II because it didn't have to go to war (unlike World War I where it was still a Dominion of the UK). Same goes for Australia and New Zealand.

Or are you just assuming the entire Commonwealth goes, whether they're governed by the UK or independent at the time?

---

Either way, if they manage to win, it will take longer than 1945. The British Empire and the Commonwealth were already all in World War II and still the Soviets did more damage to Germany overall (and that's not even getting into the bit where apparently Free France isn't trying to win back the occupied part of the country in your scenario for some reason... and it's also not clear if you're including the various refugees from central Europe who were involved in fighting for the allies or the resistance movements in occupied countries that were also helping the allied cause).