WWII: British Empire Supercharged

[Kannap]

It's not like the German routes of attack weren't predictable. The British had superior planning, radar, and within a few exchanges had a pretty good idea on how the German air formations worked and generally operated.

Absolutely no reason (unless they felt the warships didn't have reliable cost-effective AA capability) why large packets of warships couldn't be stationed throughout the English Channel to massively disrupt the Battle of Britain.

Would you lose more supplies in the Atlantic and over the world? Maybe. But winning the Battle of Britain is as close to a "decisive victory" as you could get and there was no question UK wanted and needed to win it. It would show the world that Britain was on the winning side, doesn't matter how many more convoys are sunk. How many subs could Germany build anyways? They put most of their money into the army.

A single UK fleet based in the Indian Ocean already had more tonnage than the entirety of the German submarine force probably, and the KM did no effective commerce raiding with surface ships (most of the German Navy wasn't out there terrorising things, mostly subs). English Channel would have been a swinging point if RN was relevant against aircraft.

This is your brain on HOI4

Why didn't Hitler just open the console command box and type "annex ENG"? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Punished UMN]

This is your brain on HOI4

Why didn't Hitler just open the console command box and type "annex ENG"? Inquiring minds would like to know.

IM is absolutely right though, the Royal Navy was irrelevant to aircraft and if the Germans had gotten and kept air superiority, the Royal Navy couldn't have done a damned thing about any invasion, just like they couldn't do a damned thing about the invasion of Crete. Without air superiority, the Royal Navy are sitting ducks, their AA armament can't fight back effectively against aircraft, they would get ganked, exactly as they did in every other battle they fought against aircraft without air superiority. The Royal Navy's own records say it only managed to shoot down a few dozen German aircraft in the Battle of Crete, and in exchange, the entire fucking Mediterranean Fleet was knocked out of action for months. In the South China Sea, the British lost their most modern battleship and a post-war Battlecruiser, with a loss of 840 sailors in exchange for four Japanese aircraft. The Royal Navy was helpless against air superiority.

[Ifreann]

This is your brain on HOI4

Why didn't Hitler just open the console command box and type "annex ENG"? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Hitler was playing on ironman mode, chasing those cheevos.

[The Two Jerseys]

Why didn't Hitler just open the console command box and type "annex ENG"? Inquiring minds would like to know.

IM is absolutely right though, the Royal Navy was irrelevant to aircraft and if the Germans had gotten and kept air superiority, the Royal Navy couldn't have done a damned thing about any invasion, just like they couldn't do a damned thing about the invasion of Crete. Without air superiority, the Royal Navy are sitting ducks, their AA armament can't fight back effectively against aircraft, they would get ganked, exactly as they did in every other battle they fought against aircraft without air superiority. The Royal Navy's own records say it only managed to shoot down a few dozen German aircraft in the Battle of Crete, and in exchange, the entire fucking Mediterranean Fleet was knocked out of action for months. In the South China Sea, the British lost their most modern battleship and a post-war Battlecruiser, with a loss of 840 sailors in exchange for four Japanese aircraft. The Royal Navy was helpless against air superiority.

There's a few critical differences between those examples and Operation Sealion though. Force Z had absolutely no air cover at all, while at Crete the German fighters had the range to cover the bombers while they knocked out the British airfields.

On the other hand, with the Battle of Britain the idea of German air superiority was pretty much a pipe dream, all they could really hope to achieve was forcing 11 Group to withdraw north of the Thames where any attack on RAF airfields would be unescorted and would probably not go well for the Germans. Meanwhile, Fighter Command still has the range to cover the South Coast and large parts of the Channel, so realistically a German invasion and the Royal Navy's response would take place under contested airspace, meaning that there's a good likelihood that enough of the Home Fleet would make it through to wreck the shit out of the German invasion fleet.

[Infected Mushroom]

It's not like the German routes of attack weren't predictable. The British had superior planning, radar, and within a few exchanges had a pretty good idea on how the German air formations worked and generally operated.

Absolutely no reason (unless they felt the warships didn't have reliable cost-effective AA capability) why large packets of warships couldn't be stationed throughout the English Channel to massively disrupt the Battle of Britain.

Would you lose more supplies in the Atlantic and over the world? Maybe. But winning the Battle of Britain is as close to a "decisive victory" as you could get and there was no question UK wanted and needed to win it. It would show the world that Britain was on the winning side, doesn't matter how many more convoys are sunk. How many subs could Germany build anyways? They put most of their money into the army.

A single UK fleet based in the Indian Ocean already had more tonnage than the entirety of the German submarine force probably, and the KM did no effective commerce raiding with surface ships (most of the German Navy wasn't out there terrorising things, mostly subs). English Channel would have been a swinging point if RN was relevant against aircraft.

This is your brain on HOI4

And this is your brain not addressing the actual substance of the post, or at least your fingers.

[Punished UMN]

IM is absolutely right though, the Royal Navy was irrelevant to aircraft and if the Germans had gotten and kept air superiority, the Royal Navy couldn't have done a damned thing about any invasion, just like they couldn't do a damned thing about the invasion of Crete. Without air superiority, the Royal Navy are sitting ducks, their AA armament can't fight back effectively against aircraft, they would get ganked, exactly as they did in every other battle they fought against aircraft without air superiority. The Royal Navy's own records say it only managed to shoot down a few dozen German aircraft in the Battle of Crete, and in exchange, the entire fucking Mediterranean Fleet was knocked out of action for months. In the South China Sea, the British lost their most modern battleship and a post-war Battlecruiser, with a loss of 840 sailors in exchange for four Japanese aircraft. The Royal Navy was helpless against air superiority.

There's a few critical differences between those examples and Operation Sealion though. Force Z had absolutely no air cover at all, while at Crete the German fighters had the range to cover the bombers while they knocked out the British airfields.

On the other hand, with the Battle of Britain the idea of German air superiority was pretty much a pipe dream, all they could really hope to achieve was forcing 11 Group to withdraw north of the Thames where any attack on RAF airfields would be unescorted and would probably not go well for the Germans. Meanwhile, Fighter Command still has the range to cover the South Coast and large parts of the Channel, so realistically a German invasion and the Royal Navy's response would take place under contested airspace, meaning that there's a good likelihood that enough of the Home Fleet would make it through to wreck the shit out of the German invasion fleet.

As NCR pointed out, Hitler refused to approve Sea Lion without air superiority, so any scenario of a hypothetical Sea Lion must pre-suppose German air superiority.

[The Two Jerseys]

This is your brain on HOI4

And this is your brain not addressing the actual substance of the post, or at least your fingers.

The substance of the post has been addressed multiple times: warships are useless against bomber formations flying at 20,000 feet, employing them as floating AA batteries in the Channel needlessly exposes them to danger and prevents them from being used for more useful duties.

[Infected Mushroom]

And this is your brain not addressing the actual substance of the post, or at least your fingers.

The substance of the post has been addressed multiple times: warships are useless against bomber formations flying at 20,000 feet, employing them as floating AA batteries in the Channel needlessly exposes them to danger and prevents them from being used for more useful duties.

And... I agree?

I've been saying high command's reluctance to do just that shows they DIDN'T have cost-effective AA.

[The Two Jerseys]

The substance of the post has been addressed multiple times: warships are useless against bomber formations flying at 20,000 feet, employing them as floating AA batteries in the Channel needlessly exposes them to danger and prevents them from being used for more useful duties.

And... I agree?

I've been saying high command's reluctance to do just that shows they DIDN'T have cost-effective AA.

The RN did have cost effective AA.

The problem is that you think AA works by pushing a button and an enemy plane just blows up.

[Infected Mushroom]

And... I agree?

I've been saying high command's reluctance to do just that shows they DIDN'T have cost-effective AA.

The RN did have cost effective AA.

The problem is that you think AA works by pushing a button and an enemy plane just blows up.

I never said that.

[Punished UMN]

And... I agree?

I've been saying high command's reluctance to do just that shows they DIDN'T have cost-effective AA.

The RN did have cost effective AA.

The problem is that you think AA works by pushing a button and an enemy plane just blows up.

Read his posts. He's using the ineffectiveness of the RN's AA to argue that they would not be able to stop an invasion if the Germans achieved air superiority that was prerequisite for Operation SeaLion.

[The Two Jerseys]

The RN did have cost effective AA.

The problem is that you think AA works by pushing a button and an enemy plane just blows up.

Read his posts. He's using the ineffectiveness of the RN's AA to argue that they would not be able to stop an invasion if the Germans achieved air superiority that was prerequisite for Operation SeaLion.

Did IM move the goalposts again? Because before his posts were "why didn't they just employ the RN as floating AA platforms during the Battle of Britain and shoot down more German planes with AA fire because the RN isn't doing anything better with their time", Sealion didn't factor in anywhere.

[Infected Mushroom]

Read his posts. He's using the ineffectiveness of the RN's AA to argue that they would not be able to stop an invasion if the Germans achieved air superiority that was prerequisite for Operation SeaLion.

Did IM move the goalposts again? Because before his posts were "why didn't they just employ the RN as floating AA platforms during the Battle of Britain and shoot down more German planes with AA fire because the RN isn't doing anything better with their time", Sealion didn't factor in anywhere.

No the line of argument was "they didn't because naval AA wasn't very useful against aircraft"

[Cetacea]

Britain didn’t USA but Without the Soviets it’s going to be hard

[Chan Island]

Stalemate. Britain could industrialise and draw resources from a quarter of the globe, but all Germany would have to do is fortify.

Also, this is a depressing definition of going alone. My bois the French, Belgians, Norwegians, Denmark, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Poland and the Greeks are all being left out even though they all fought very bravely against overwhelming odds.

Also, what of the Chinese? There's no mention of them anywhere, even though they tied down 7 out of every 10 Japanese soldiers and caused a similar rate of casualties. They were a major power in every sense of the word and were treated as such by the other allies during the war.

[Punished UMN]

Read his posts. He's using the ineffectiveness of the RN's AA to argue that they would not be able to stop an invasion if the Germans achieved air superiority that was prerequisite for Operation SeaLion.

Did IM move the goalposts again? Because before his posts were "why didn't they just employ the RN as floating AA platforms during the Battle of Britain and shoot down more German planes with AA fire because the RN isn't doing anything better with their time", Sealion didn't factor in anywhere.

Yeah, that's called a rhetorical question and he's been making the point for like three pages so it's definitely not moving the goalposts.

[Infected Mushroom]

Stalemate. Britain could industrialise and draw resources from a quarter of the globe, but all Germany would have to do is fortify.

Also, this is a depressing definition of going alone. My bois the French, Belgians, Norwegians, Denmark, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Poland and the Greeks are all being left out even though they all fought very bravely against overwhelming odds.

Also, what of the Chinese? There's no mention of them anywhere, even though they tied down 7 out of every 10 Japanese soldiers and caused a similar rate of casualties. They were a major power in every sense of the word and were treated as such by the other allies during the war.

Oh yeah

They would be allowed to fight for the British.

It’s just USA and USSR are out. This is to make the war a little bit more balanced and with a debatable outcome. The real world war was too one sided. I wanted to make things more interesting and unclear.

[Chan Island]

Stalemate. Britain could industrialise and draw resources from a quarter of the globe, but all Germany would have to do is fortify.

Also, this is a depressing definition of going alone. My bois the French, Belgians, Norwegians, Denmark, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Poland and the Greeks are all being left out even though they all fought very bravely against overwhelming odds.

Also, what of the Chinese? There's no mention of them anywhere, even though they tied down 7 out of every 10 Japanese soldiers and caused a similar rate of casualties. They were a major power in every sense of the word and were treated as such by the other allies during the war.

Oh yeah

They would be allowed to fight for the British.

It’s just USA and USSR are out. This is to make the war a little bit more balanced and with a debatable outcome. The real world war was too one sided. I wanted to make things more interesting and unclear.

Okay, then Britain for sure still wins ww2. The Nazis have to expend time and resources controlling tens of millions of angry people who actively hope for liberation by Britain. Eventually Britain pushes out the axis in Europe through Italy and bleed the Japanese dry in the killing fields of China and Burma.

Especially since this cuts both ways. The USSR and USA were selling billions of oil to the Nazis before they got into the war. Without their profiteering (since they are not lend leasing in your world) the Nazi airforce is grounded in 6 months, and the army is reliant on a trickle from Romania until the British bomb those to smithereens.