NATION

PASSWORD

Re: War for the Throne

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you accept the deal?

Yes (I accept the magical help)
6
35%
No (no witchcraft in my campaign)
11
65%
 
Total votes : 17

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Re: War for the Throne

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:54 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

The king is dead, and now four factions fight for the throne.

You are a member of the great House of Pierpont. The throne is yours... by right (objectively, in terms of the line of succession).

But not all of the other houses care, in fact, your enemies side with pretenders (coming up with lies that are unacceptable to you) and unfortunately for you, they've got the numbers. In fact, you are the THIRD LARGEST faction. Two factions individually outnumber you. Everyone is fighting everyone and there's additional politics to get the other neutral houses to enter and support various sides.

As a lord of Pierpont, you have some things going for you:
a massive force of mounted cavalry (many of the very finest knights in the realm)
a solid defensive position
relatively experienced commanders from the last big war

Unfortunately:
while you have some farmlands your food supply and access to important resources is vulnerable without further conquests.
you have a very bad reputation amongst the other lords (a lack of popularity) because you have in the past, very unwisely insulted many of the great houses

...

As it turns out, magic is a real thing. It's just that no one really knows how it works exactly. Some magic users can cast magical attacks in battle and cause objects to fly but some of the most powerful magic users can bless and curse entire armies (there are only a few of these people around now). One of the Great Witches has offered to bless your campaign in exchange for a high ranking position at your table after the war. The Great Witch has already demonstrated feats of magic to you.

If you take the deal, the Great Witch will bless your army and curse all of your enemies. The Witch tells you that this will greatly swing things in your favour and chances are good that your enemies will start dropping dead one after another until you take the throne, though victory is not guaranteed. However, you will have to pay for it through a mechanism of fate where you lose 1/3 of your remaining lifespan. You have no idea how many years that amounts to.

You're not sure you believe in this magic thing but many of your advisors tell you "Yes it is real, and you need it, we're outnumbered."

Now assuming only you have access to this magic thing (your enemies don't) and assuming you can't back out of the war (it's too late, you'll always be considered a threat to the claims of whoever took the throne), your options are clear:

1. Accept the Dark Magic deal. Offer up 1/3 of your life and continue to fight the war with a blessing on you and a curse on your enemies (but not being very sure how that works out or whether or not you'd really win).

2. Say no to the Dark Magic. Fight the war using normal strategy, politics, diplomacy, and military skills.


Please also factor in that the use of Dark Magic is a huge taboo and if you accept the help, your reputation amongst the other houses and the common people will further plummet due to the bad PR.

What do you do?

I will accept the deal, more out of a sense of misplaced curiosity than anything else. It is possible the end result is that I still die and never take the throne, but it will make the whole war a lot more interesting. I'd also like to see my enemies suffer some misfortune in the process.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Cetacea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6539
Founded: Apr 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cetacea » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:06 am

The Witch can cheat this if you take it - if she intends to murder you 5 minutes after she cast the spell, you lose 1m 40, you Army is blessed and enemies cursed - your faction will have victory
But you die

This deal sucks

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:45 am

Cetacea wrote:The Witch can cheat this if you take it - if she intends to murder you 5 minutes after she cast the spell, you lose 1m 40, you Army is blessed and enemies cursed - your faction will have victory
But you die

This deal sucks


You'd have to trust her. That she'd want you on the throne for a long time.

Presumably she'd want to benefit from having you on the throne long-term and not navigate against the other lords and ladies without a high born family name all by herself. If you go, she won't necessarily last very long.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Vikanias
Minister
 
Posts: 2124
Founded: May 01, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Vikanias » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:04 am

I’d accept, although the Witch would probably take 1/4th of my lifespan in order to help me out it’s a small price to pay. And not to mention the fact that the witch would probably want me alive for long enough to have influence on me. The solution is to kill her after the deal is done, no public execution just some poisoned arrow.
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Umbratellus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 492
Founded: Aug 22, 2021
Tyranny by Majority

Postby Umbratellus » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:42 am

The only real solution is to send the witch to the stake.

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Neanderthaland
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8993
Founded: Sep 10, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:10 pm

Sorry, I only practice life-affirming magic.
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:39 pm

Umbratellus wrote:The only real solution is to send the witch to the stake.


But what about the war?

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Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53358
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:43 pm

I kill the witch and reorganize my army along Macedonian lines and proceed to phalanx and companion cavalry my way to victory.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

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Comerciante
Diplomat
 
Posts: 646
Founded: Dec 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Comerciante » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:45 pm

After winning I launch a rebranding campaign on the witch's magic. If the issues against dark magic are religiously related, I'll get a new pope, if it's a matter of societal issues, we'll get those blessings rolling, if it's a matter of superstition we'll get those teachers out there with guards of course.

The witch will have a vested interest in letting me stay on the throne and will hopefully delay my inevitable death, I can always sacrifice a scheming son or daughter or two yes?
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:34 pm

Comerciante wrote:After winning I launch a rebranding campaign on the witch's magic. If the issues against dark magic are religiously related, I'll get a new pope, if it's a matter of societal issues, we'll get those blessings rolling, if it's a matter of superstition we'll get those teachers out there with guards of course.

The witch will have a vested interest in letting me stay on the throne and will hopefully delay my inevitable death, I can always sacrifice a scheming son or daughter or two yes?


Presumably the witch wouldn’t control when you die. Just that you have to agree to some kind of mysterious magical covenant where you gain an advantage in exchange for a fated 1/3 of your life. The witch tells you she can’t be sure how many years that amounts to or when it’s coming.

The witch would have the unique power to initiate the magical ritual to enable the deal. But her control thereafter is very limited.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:37 pm

Comerciante wrote:After winning I launch a rebranding campaign on the witch's magic. If the issues against dark magic are religiously related, I'll get a new pope, if it's a matter of societal issues, we'll get those blessings rolling, if it's a matter of superstition we'll get those teachers out there with guards of course.

The witch will have a vested interest in letting me stay on the throne and will hopefully delay my inevitable death, I can always sacrifice a scheming son or daughter or two yes?


You mean you’ll try to make a Church of England type break? To try and rebrand the witch as a prophet or saint maybe?

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Comerciante
Diplomat
 
Posts: 646
Founded: Dec 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Comerciante » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:12 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:You mean you’ll try to make a Church of England type break? To try and rebrand the witch as a prophet or saint maybe?

Pretty much. If the religion will not come into compliance they will be brought into it. If that undertaking is to cumbersome I'll start my own with blackjack and hookers.
"Rumors of CFC affiliates building superweapons in orbit over Earth is fake news. Watch groups have corroborated this even though it would be to quote the BoD "totally rad."

#00: "The first step to acquiring real power, is to learn how to steal it from someone else, the second step is learning how to keep it the third step is to restart from the first step."
"Good and Evil are Two Tall Trees sitting upon a hill, the Tree of Good is Strong and Tall and does not bend, the Tree of Evil is Short and Flimsy when the wind blows Good resists, and breaks and falls on the floor and dies and Evil? well, it bends and it lives."

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Umbratellus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 492
Founded: Aug 22, 2021
Tyranny by Majority

Postby Umbratellus » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:43 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Umbratellus wrote:The only real solution is to send the witch to the stake.


But what about the war?

Wars are temporary mortal affairs; to risk eternity by gambling with infernal powers would be by comparison a fool's bargain.

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Neo-Western East Korea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 564
Founded: Jun 15, 2021
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Neo-Western East Korea » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:48 pm

2, why would I bargain with a witch when there’s an even more obvious solution.
If magic is real, and magic can be empowered by sacrificing things (EG; 1/3 of lifespan) then if we sacrifice the witch, we can have our cake and eat it too, since she’s clearly magically powerful enough to be valuable to some greater entity.

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Eahland
Minister
 
Posts: 3408
Founded: Apr 18, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Eahland » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:18 pm

Frankly, I trust my own skills and abilities a lot further than I trust this witch's proposal to not be a trap.

And that's even before we take the life-shortening into consideration, which gets real sketchy when combined with the fact that I'm about to go into a high-risk situation. I mean, if we assume that, without the witch's assistance, I'm doomed to die in the next year or so either in battle or under a victorious rival's headsman's axe, then taking away a third of that lifespan means that I don't live long enough to see the fighting through, win or lose. Which means that maybe the witch wins, but I lose regardless.
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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:20 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I kill the witch and reorganize my army along Macedonian lines and proceed to phalanx and companion cavalry my way to victory.

While I like the gusto there are good reasons the phalanx died as a military tactic over two millennia ago.

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Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53358
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Heloin wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I kill the witch and reorganize my army along Macedonian lines and proceed to phalanx and companion cavalry my way to victory.

While I like the gusto there are good reasons the phalanx died as a military tactic over two millennia ago.


No there isn't. This is revisionist legionary history, begone Latin.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

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Great Algerstonia
Minister
 
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Founded: Mar 21, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:25 pm

I, Bokassa I, His Imperial Majesty, Emperor of Central Africa by the Will of the Central African People, United within the National Political Party, the MESAN, pick none of these options as everybody is automatically loyal to me already, for I am the greatest Emperor in history. So none of these options apply to me.
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Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:34 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Heloin wrote:While I like the gusto there are good reasons the phalanx died as a military tactic over two millennia ago.


No there isn't. This is revisionist legionary history, begone Latin.

*looks upon the field of dead hoplites*
This is clearly the fault of everyone else cheating.

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:07 pm

Neo-Western East Korea wrote:2, why would I bargain with a witch when there’s an even more obvious solution.
If magic is real, and magic can be empowered by sacrificing things (EG; 1/3 of lifespan) then if we sacrifice the witch, we can have our cake and eat it too, since she’s clearly magically powerful enough to be valuable to some greater entity.


Because we don't know how to perform the magical ritual and we don't have magic ourselves. A Muggle could point a wand all they want and say the words but the spells wouldn't fire.

And presumably the person who benefits from the magical effects would need to sacrifice something dear to them. Otherwise it would be a Gain Gain and that usually not how dark/blood magic works, at least not in this verse.

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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:09 pm

Eahland wrote:Frankly, I trust my own skills and abilities a lot further than I trust this witch's proposal to not be a trap.

And that's even before we take the life-shortening into consideration, which gets real sketchy when combined with the fact that I'm about to go into a high-risk situation. I mean, if we assume that, without the witch's assistance, I'm doomed to die in the next year or so either in battle or under a victorious rival's headsman's axe, then taking away a third of that lifespan means that I don't live long enough to see the fighting through, win or lose. Which means that maybe the witch wins, but I lose regardless.


The situation you mention is within the realm of possibility, Still, you are destined to get at least SOME big benefit of some kind (whether you win or lose). So at least you'll be able to watch some of your enemies go down or take some heavy damage too and it will probably be spectacular.

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Eahland
Minister
 
Posts: 3408
Founded: Apr 18, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Eahland » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:04 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Eahland wrote:Frankly, I trust my own skills and abilities a lot further than I trust this witch's proposal to not be a trap.

And that's even before we take the life-shortening into consideration, which gets real sketchy when combined with the fact that I'm about to go into a high-risk situation. I mean, if we assume that, without the witch's assistance, I'm doomed to die in the next year or so either in battle or under a victorious rival's headsman's axe, then taking away a third of that lifespan means that I don't live long enough to see the fighting through, win or lose. Which means that maybe the witch wins, but I lose regardless.


The situation you mention is within the realm of possibility, Still, you are destined to get at least SOME big benefit of some kind (whether you win or lose). So at least you'll be able to watch some of your enemies go down or take some heavy damage too and it will probably be spectacular.

It's not just "within the realm of possibility". It's basically guaranteed by the scenario setup.

Succession wars tend to be very much a "win or die" affair. As long as I'm still alive, I pose a threat to any of my rivals' grip on the throne. Even imprisoned, I'm a rallying point for their enemies. That means that, if I'm destined to lose without the witch's "help", then my destined lifespan is, at best, as long after the end of the war as it takes for the victor to arrange a fancy execution party. And that means that, if I do accept the witch's "help", all I'm doing is having her ensure my defeat by killing me 33% sooner than my rivals can.

And on the flip side, if my destined lifespan is long enough that it's possible to trim a third of it off and still have me come out the other side of this war victorious... then I was destined to win the war without the witch's intervention, because that's the only way I live that long, and so accepting her "help" is just cutting off a third of my life for no reason. Even taking it completely at face value, and ignoring the political costs of dealing with dark magic, there is no up side to this deal.
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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:46 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:I kill the witch and reorganize my army along Macedonian lines and proceed to phalanx and companion cavalry my way to victory.

Roman legions and medieval archers: Allow us to introduce ourselves.

Regarding the war, I shall defend my realm first. A solid defensive position and experienced commanders already made the job much easier.
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New haven america
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:02 am

I'd court the witch and spend the rest of my life randomly declaring "She's Muh Queen!"
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Comerciante
Diplomat
 
Posts: 646
Founded: Dec 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Comerciante » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:25 am

Eahland wrote:And on the flip side, if my destined lifespan is long enough that it's possible to trim a third of it off and still have me come out the other side of this war victorious... then I was destined to win the war without the witch's intervention, because that's the only way I live that long, and so accepting her "help" is just cutting off a third of my life for no reason. Even taking it completely at face value, and ignoring the political costs of dealing with dark magic, there is no up side to this deal.

This assumes your lifespan is set in stone or something.

I assume that if we decline the deal then our chances of victory are close to none and we are guaranteed death, we are the third-largest force in the field and I don't trust we all have much idea on how to command a medieval army since this isn't total war.

But if we take the Witches deal it guarantees that we will have a lifespan to spare by warrant of winning.
"Rumors of CFC affiliates building superweapons in orbit over Earth is fake news. Watch groups have corroborated this even though it would be to quote the BoD "totally rad."

#00: "The first step to acquiring real power, is to learn how to steal it from someone else, the second step is learning how to keep it the third step is to restart from the first step."
"Good and Evil are Two Tall Trees sitting upon a hill, the Tree of Good is Strong and Tall and does not bend, the Tree of Evil is Short and Flimsy when the wind blows Good resists, and breaks and falls on the floor and dies and Evil? well, it bends and it lives."

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