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Decreasing cost of renewables unlikely to plateau soon

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Neu California
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Decreasing cost of renewables unlikely to plateau soon

Postby Neu California » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:06 am

Aes Technica wrote:Past projections of energy costs have consistently underestimated just how cheap renewable energy would be in the future, as well as the benefits of rolling them out quickly, according to a new report out of the Institute of New Economic Thinking at the University of Oxford.

The report makes predictions about more than 50 technologies such as solar power, offshore wind, and more, and it compares them to a future that still runs on carbon. “It’s not just good news for renewables. It’s good news for the planet,” Matthew Ives, one of the report’s authors and a senior researcher at the Oxford Martin Post-Carbon Transition Programme, told Ars.

The paper used probabilistic cost forecasting methods—taking into account both past data and current and ongoing technological developments in renewables—for its findings. It also used large caches of data from sources such as the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) and Bloomberg. Beyond looking at the cost (represented as dollar per unit of energy production over time), the report also represents its findings in three scenarios: a fast transition to renewables, a slow transition, and no transition at all.

Compared to sticking with fossil fuels, a quick shift to renewables could mean trillions of dollars in savings, even without accounting for things like damages caused by climate change or any co-benefits from the reduced pollution. Even beyond the savings, rolling out renewable energy sources could help the world limit global warming to 1.5° C. According to the report, if solar, wind, and the myriad other green energy tools followed the deployment trends they are projected to see in the next decade, in 25 years the world could potentially see a net-zero energy system.

“The energy transition is also going to save us money. We should be doing it anyway,” Ives said.

Plateau, or no?
The cost for renewable energy has consistently dropped as the world started its transition away from fossil fuels. Solar, for instance, is now cheaper than the creation of new coal or gas-fired power plants, according to an International Energy Agency (IEA) report. However, several reports in the past have suggested that, at some point or another, the falling costs of renewables will begin to level out. For instance, the same IEA report suggests that offshore wind prices will begin to level off now.

However, another recent paper reviewed projections for the future of renewable resources and also found that much of the earlier research underestimated future cost reductions in the field. According to Ives, past reports consistently underestimate the technological advancements that are leading to the continued decrease in the price of renewables. Ives’ paper suggests that the models used in these other forecasts have had two problems: they make assumptions about the maximum growth rates of renewables, and they use “floor costs,” a point at which the prices can’t fall further.

Ives’ report focuses mainly on the process of technological advancement, which is part of what has made renewables cheaper. Renewables have routinely performed beyond the expectations of previous papers. “They’ve been getting these forecasts wrong for quite some time,” Ives said. “You can see we’ve consistently broken through those forecasts again and again.”

The Institute of New Economic Thinking report doesn’t place a hard deadline on a cost plateau for renewables. Rather than a plateau caused by advancements, Ives said the greater likelihood is that the prices will decrease slower once things like solar and wind end up dominating the market. At that point, technological advances may very well still happen, but they might not be rolled out as frequently as they are now. “It’s the deployment that slows it down,” Ives said.

“Overly pessimistic”
This largely fits with IRENA’s finding as well, according to Michael Taylor. He’s a senior analyst with the group, which recently released its own report. According to Taylor, the group found that the cost-reduction drivers—improved technology, supply chains, scalability, and manufacturing processes—for solar and wind are likely to continue at least for the next 10 to 15 years. It’s possible that previous forecasts were conservative in their estimations, he said.

“I would expect they’re overly pessimistic,” Taylor told Ars.

However, he noted that some issues might see the reductions slow down. The pandemic, for instance, disrupted global supply chains and made it harder to obtain some essential materials, like the polysilicon used in solar panels. There are also some barriers to fully implementing renewables, such as oil and gas subsidies, public opinion, permitting, etc.

“Just on purely economic grounds, there are increasing benefits to consumers to be had by accelerating the rollout of renewable power generation,” Taylor said. “We’d encourage policymakers to look very seriously at trying to remove the barriers that currently exist.”


So, nuclear vs. renewables vs. fossil fuels is a long running and tiring debate (I know firsthand), but it seems like a clear winner is emerging in this fight and it's not nukes.

So, what does NSG think? Are the predictions in this article too optimistic, pessimistic, or wildly out of touch? And what does this mean for the future of power? Obviously, I think they're well and truly correct and we are heading in the right direction. I also wish that my condo complex would install solar panels on top of all the garages we have, just because it would cut electricity costs down considerably (every unit has a one or two car garage associated with it and there are 30 units per lot over three large lots).
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:10 am

The cost of renewables coming down can only be a good thing, as cost is one of the big (if not the big) deterrents to households using renewables.
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Postby Luziyca » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:51 am

The New California Republic wrote:The cost of renewables coming down can only be a good thing, as cost is one of the big (if not the big) deterrents to households using renewables.

Definitely this.

I hope countries around the world can start focusing on adding more renewable energy as costs keep diminishing (though on the other hand, I feel many will want to wait until it plateaus because it'd be dumb to pay now and then feel like you've wasted money when prices are lower in a year or two).
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:59 am

Yeoooooo cheaper solar panels for the boys.
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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:11 am

The New California Republic wrote:The cost of renewables coming down can only be a good thing, as cost is one of the big (if not the big) deterrents to households using renewables.

Quite frankly, I don't know why large concave mirrors to collect and use solar radiation in the backyard aren't the norm by now. In many towns it'd be unmistakably more practical than lawns. (Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?)

Imagine how much advancement in renewable energy could've been made if every dollar thrown at nuclear over the decades had been thrown at renewables instead.
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:13 am

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The cost of renewables coming down can only be a good thing, as cost is one of the big (if not the big) deterrents to households using renewables.

Quite frankly, I don't know why large concave mirrors to collect and use solar radiation in the backyard aren't the norm by now. In many towns it'd be unmistakably more practical than lawns. (Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?)

Imagine how much advancement in renewable energy could've been made if every dollar thrown at nuclear over the decades had been thrown at renewables instead.

Nuclear has advantages, instead, imagine how much we could have saved if money thrown away on fossil fuels was used on renewables instead.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:18 am

Neutraligon wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Quite frankly, I don't know why large concave mirrors to collect and use solar radiation in the backyard aren't the norm by now. In many towns it'd be unmistakably more practical than lawns. (Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?)

Imagine how much advancement in renewable energy could've been made if every dollar thrown at nuclear over the decades had been thrown at renewables instead.

Nuclear has advantages, instead, imagine how much we could have saved if money thrown away on fossil fuels was used on renewables instead.

Nuclear, if used to decrease the share of fossil fuels in the national grid, is very effective. Until renewables get to the point where it's the dominating form of energy, nuclear is a good stop-gap.
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:20 am

Outer Sparta wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Nuclear has advantages, instead, imagine how much we could have saved if money thrown away on fossil fuels was used on renewables instead.

Nuclear, if used to decrease the share of fossil fuels in the national grid, is very effective. Until renewables get to the point where it's the dominating form of energy, nuclear is a good stop-gap.

It also works in places where renewables are less of an option. A place that has long periods of no sun for instance does not work well with solar, and if they also have little constant wind there goes that option as well.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:43 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Nuclear, if used to decrease the share of fossil fuels in the national grid, is very effective. Until renewables get to the point where it's the dominating form of energy, nuclear is a good stop-gap.

It also works in places where renewables are less of an option. A place that has long periods of no sun for instance does not work well with solar, and if they also have little constant wind there goes that option as well.

I would also say that going after nuclear plants is shortsighted when you should really go after fossil fuels. Nuclear energy has its disadvantages, but in terms of safety, it's much safer than burning fossil fuels, and the newest generation ones are much safer than the oldest ones.
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Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:22 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:It also works in places where renewables are less of an option. A place that has long periods of no sun for instance does not work well with solar, and if they also have little constant wind there goes that option as well.

I would also say that going after nuclear plants is shortsighted when you should really go after fossil fuels. Nuclear energy has its disadvantages, but in terms of safety, it's much safer than burning fossil fuels, and the newest generation ones are much safer than the oldest ones.

Absolutely - if we’d gone more full nuclear decades ago, we wouldn’t need to have so much of these climate change problems.

Heck, could’ve had the much better problem of what to do with the waste that might be a problem in a hundred thousand years.

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Postby GuessTheAltAccount » Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:52 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Quite frankly, I don't know why large concave mirrors to collect and use solar radiation in the backyard aren't the norm by now. In many towns it'd be unmistakably more practical than lawns. (Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?)

Imagine how much advancement in renewable energy could've been made if every dollar thrown at nuclear over the decades had been thrown at renewables instead.

Nuclear has advantages, instead, imagine how much we could have saved if money thrown away on fossil fuels was used on renewables instead.

The kind of people who do not trust our species to handle something as sophisticated as nuclear technology tend to be the same people who do not trust it to mine for coal without the mine collapsing, or to drill for oil and gas without the well blowing up. Let's not pretend fossil fuels were used on their behalf. They almost universally were begging for wind and solar.
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Postby Lady Victory » Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:15 pm

The crusade against nuclear power really is the epitome of social ignorance. Virtually every nuclear accident that has occurred at a plant occurred due to lack of maintenance, human error, or natural disaster - with the former two being preventable. Renewables are best, of course, but nuclear is still a perfectly acceptable alternative to fossil fuels.
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Postby Haganham » Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:22 pm

So how long do we have to wait to address climate change, since we've been sitting on nuclear for a half century now.

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?

This is a class thing. sustenance farming is for the poors and brings down property values, so most suburbs regulate it to some degree. Got to protect that "good investment"
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Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:09 pm

Haganham wrote:So how long do we have to wait to address climate change, since we've been sitting on nuclear for a half century now.

GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Actually, even in towns where lawns are seen to absorb rainwater, you'd think a vegetable garden would be more practical than either. Does the farming lobby buy off legislators or something?

This is a class thing. sustenance farming is for the poors and brings down property values, so most suburbs regulate it to some degree. Got to protect that "good investment"

Well, that and there’s probably not a large portion of people who want to do it in the suburbs.

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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:13 pm

Solar isn't going to win against nuclear, unless we're willing/able to do something rediculous like covering the entire Sahara desert with solar panels and finding a way to channel all that power to go to where it needs to go.

The biggest drawback of solar is that the sun isn't always shining and isn't a reliable base load. Its more like a supplemental or intermittent source of electricity generation. My parents won't get solar for their roof, its still too expensive and it doesn't make financial/economic sense to put one in just yet.

To even make the solar panels, a ton of precious metals and rare earth materials and etc. have to be mined and semiconductor chips produced and I'm sure that involves using a ton of carbon based energy. These solar panels aren't even close to the efficiency that natural plants have with photosynthesis. Its not like we can just harness most of the solar energy that reaches it. A ton of it is probably lost.
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:17 pm

Saiwania wrote:Solar isn't going to win against nuclear, unless we're willing/able to do something rediculous like covering the entire Sahara desert with solar panels and finding a way to channel all that power to go to where it needs to go.

The biggest drawback of solar is that the sun isn't always shining and isn't a reliable base load. Its more like a supplemental or intermittent source of electricity generation. My parents won't get solar for their roof, its still too expensive and it doesn't make financial/economic sense to put one in just yet.

I am sure you have numbers backing up your claim for how large a solar farm is needed to provide for our energy needs.
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:22 pm

Neutraligon wrote:I am sure you have numbers backing up your claim for how large a solar farm is needed to provide for our energy needs.


It would take 51.4 billion 350W solar panels to power the world!
Put another way, this is the equivalent of a solar power plant that covers 115,625 square miles.

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Postby New haven america » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:23 pm

Lady Victory wrote:The crusade against nuclear power really is the epitome of social ignorance. Virtually every nuclear accident that has occurred at a plant occurred due to lack of maintenance, human error, or natural disaster - with the former two being preventable. Renewables are best, of course, but nuclear is still a perfectly acceptable alternative to fossil fuels.

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Postby Antipatros » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:23 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Saiwania wrote:Solar isn't going to win against nuclear, unless we're willing/able to do something rediculous like covering the entire Sahara desert with solar panels and finding a way to channel all that power to go to where it needs to go.

The biggest drawback of solar is that the sun isn't always shining and isn't a reliable base load. Its more like a supplemental or intermittent source of electricity generation. My parents won't get solar for their roof, its still too expensive and it doesn't make financial/economic sense to put one in just yet.

I am sure you have numbers backing up your claim for how large a solar farm is needed to provide for our energy needs.

It's just some baseless nonsense.

EIA projects renewables share of U.S. electricity generation mix will double by 2050

Once the wind tax credit goes away, solar is going to be the leading source of new renewable power on the grid.

To answer the question about putting solar in the Sahara, there was a think tank that advocated for that. The surface area needed is not really that much. You just need transmission (which we can do) and storage (which is a bit harder).

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Postby Mercatus » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:53 pm

I hope y’all have fun when the toxic shit running off those panels during the rain goes into the soil and eventually your groundwater.

Oh yeah, let’s not forget how much material waste they’ll create after they need to be replaced.
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Postby Mercatus » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:54 pm

Lady Victory wrote:The crusade against nuclear power really is the epitome of social ignorance. Virtually every nuclear accident that has occurred at a plant occurred due to lack of maintenance, human error, or natural disaster - with the former two being preventable. Renewables are best, of course, but nuclear is still a perfectly acceptable alternative to fossil fuels.


Or shitty Soviet technology.

Nuclear plants are THE best source of power IMO. Other forms of “clean” energy take up lots of land and have directly harmful effects on their surroundings.
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Postby Gonswanza » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:01 pm

The greatest alternative to "dirty" non-renewables is nuclear and other alternate forms of energy. To simply rely on one but not the other isn't a solution, if anything, that's either committing fiscal suicide due to sunk costs that later turn into a deficit of wasted capital... Or a problematic long-running issue with people who still think we use RMBK reactors... Plus the mildly complex issue of transporting fuel around.

Obviously, we can use both nuclear and green energy together to try to offset the faults of both, even if nuclear is technically superior as a catch-all solution, only due to how annoying it would be for employees to drive around or through a Greenpeace blockade on their way to work.

Plus nuclear helps to stopgap the costs of other tech, supplying power when it's night or not windy, along with offering a mild profit in spite of the costs (yes, nuke plants are EXPENSIVE, hence why we don't have them popping up everywhere like weeds)...
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Postby Antipatros » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:05 pm

The two big reasons nuclear power isn't seeing a renaissance:

1) Political opposition from environmental groups.

2) The big one: It's expensive. The capital costs are ridiculous, and the operating costs are nothing to sneeze at either. There are a lot of reasons for the increase in costs -- it's not necessarily a straightforward problem to solve.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:11 pm

Antipatros wrote:The two big reasons nuclear power isn't seeing a renaissance:

1) Political opposition from environmental groups.

2) The big one: It's expensive. The capital costs are ridiculous, and the operating costs are nothing to sneeze at either. There are a lot of reasons for the increase in costs -- it's not necessarily a straightforward problem to solve.

That's why it would be ideal to have more nuclear, but the costs to build initially are just massive. With renewables getting cheaper and cheaper, they will be the desired option sooner or later.
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:13 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:That's why it would be ideal to have more nuclear, but the costs to build initially are just massive. With renewables getting cheaper and cheaper, they will be the desired option sooner or later.


Not if you wind up needing nuclear power anyways to be able to get the energy needed to mine all the precious and rare earth metals from the ground and do all the work to produce finished solar panel products from factories/facilities. It's an exceptionally bad idea to be thinking that solar alone is going to be enough.

Hydrogen can be used for example, but there is an energy cost to actually producing it where it'd take energy from elsewhere. If most fossil fuels are hydro-carbons, perhaps in the long term, the carbon can be removed to enough of an extent where we're left with clean hydrogen. But that's only viable if there is an excess or surplus of energy generated that can be used as opposed to there being only enough energy to meet demand.
Last edited by Saiwania on Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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