American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Fahran]

Well, sure, mass tourism didn't exist centuries ago, we didn't go to the other side of the world for a few weeks and then back. But mass migration did exist - just look at how many fled UK and Ireland to come to USA. And of course all the slaves that were, unwillingly, brought from Africa to the Americas. And inside Europe we had lot of migrations too. It was a one-time journey you would make only once in your life, risky and complicated, but people did migrate.

That was a modern migration that began in 1845 as a result of the Potato Famine. Similarly, forceful movement of enslaved persons happened previously, albeit on a much greater scale in the early modern era, but still paled in comparison in many cases to what is presently occuring.

Slave ships brought as many as thirteen million enslaved Africans, largely from West Africa, to the Americas over the course of 400 years. This is equivalent to 32,500 people per year on average. The global population was 603 million. This is a movement of .005% of that population.

At least 1.1 million people immigrated to the US in 2016. The global population is 7.4 billion. This is a movement of .01% of that population, and this is before we begin accounting to movements of populations to and from other countries in the Americas.

Mind you, it's an effect of the world becoming more interconnected and travel becoming much, much easier. Beyond that, slaves weren't volunteering to immigrate. A lot of them were war captives taken from their homes and families against their will. These days a decent number of immigrants are making that choice on their own.

But large-scale movements on this scale are unique to modern history to a significant degree, and so is it being an individual pursuit, often motivated by an interest in improving one's economic lot as opposed to something that was imposed by institutions, is different as well.

Forsher also illustrated another important, probably more important in many cases, aspect of this. You cannot have neoliberalism without the large-scale migration of populations since neoliberalism is defined as much by this as it is defined by the large-scale movement of goods and services across international borders.

I don't think it's too excessive to state that neoliberalism and globalization are forces for this sort of migration in the same way that urbanization and industrialization were, albeit on a more local level, in the 1700s and 1800s.

[Alcala-Cordel]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

[Vassenor]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

And then you've got the things like the State of Wisconsin deciding the solution to this labour shortage is to loosen child labour laws rather than raise the minimum wage.

[Dreria]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

The labour shortage isn’t even real

[Vassenor]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

The labour shortage isn’t even real

So what is actually happening then?

[Dreria]

The labour shortage isn’t even real

So what is actually happening then?

they lying

[Vassenor]

So what is actually happening then?

they lying

So what is actually happening then?

[Saiwania]

The labour shortage isn’t even real

The labor shortage is real if we're seeing 100+ cargo ships stuck offshore in various ports and all unable to unload fast enough and if there are tons of supply shortages everywhere and certain businesses are raising wages and prices but still can't find people to hire or have to operate fewer hours than normal.

[Dreria]

they lying

So what is actually happening then?

they lying

[Dreria]

The labour shortage isn’t even real

The labor shortage is real if we're seeing 100+ cargo ships stuck offshore in various ports and all unable to unload fast enough and if there are tons of supply shortages everywhere and certain businesses are raising wages and prices but still can't find people to hire or have to operate fewer hours than normal.

they lying

[Maricarland]

We don't have a labor shortage.

We have a slightly smaller workforce due to deaths and disability caused by the Covid-19 pandemic, but that is not causing a labor shortage. What we have is a shortage of jobs willing to pay their workers a decent wage, willing to meet the conditions of workers (such as working from home, because corporations feel like time is being stolen from them when workers that finish all their work slack off at home instead of slacking off in the office while waiting for more work), and so on... and workers are unwilling to take it anymore (even though many may starve or go homeless without jobs, because even with these jobs they are starving and going homeless).

[Saiwania]

So far as this whining about wages not being high enough, give me a break. You're paid what people are willing to pay you or what you're perceived to be worth if its not in relation to how productive/profitable your work is for your employer. The fact at the end of the day is, its impossible for everyone to be able to be paid a high wage. Doing so will cause too much inflation as is happening now. Everything costs too damn much as of now, because nothing can get produced/delivered as expected and energy costs are through the roof.

[Alcala-Cordel]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

And then you've got the things like the State of Wisconsin deciding the solution to this labour shortage is to loosen child labour laws rather than raise the minimum wage.

They're doing WHAT?

[Vassenor]

So far as this whining about wages not being high enough, give me a break. You're paid what people are willing to pay you or what you're perceived to be worth if its not in relation to how productive/profitable your work is for your employer. The fact at the end of the day is, its impossible for everyone to be able to be paid a high wage. Doing so will cause too much inflation as is happening now. Everything costs too damn much as of now, because nothing can get produced/delivered as expected and energy costs are through the roof.

If wage increases is what causes the cost of goods to go up why are average rents going up while wages stagnate?

[Genivaria]

The whole "labor shortage" thing is interesting because companies and the news are treating it like some sort of mysterious disappearance when people aren't really trying to hide that those jobs are miserable and can not support them.

All the articles are from a corporate standpoint too, like they will do anything but recognize the value of the jobs so-called "unskilled laborers" do. It's very dehumanizing.

The labour shortage isn’t even real

The labor shortage is real in the sense that it's being artificially created by employers who refuse to negotiate wages, capitalist apologists like to claim that wages are 'agreed upon' between employee and employer and yet now when all these workers say they aren't willing to accept wages that won't pay the bills the employers slander them as 'lazy' instead of actually negotiating.
The employers have always held the cards because when one protests the low wage it's the employees problem, but now when millions protest low wages it's a problem for the employers.

[Genivaria]

And then you've got the things like the State of Wisconsin deciding the solution to this labour shortage is to loosen child labour laws rather than raise the minimum wage.

They're doing WHAT?

Have we tried literally kidnapping the poor and selling their organs yet? /s

[Vassenor]

And then you've got the things like the State of Wisconsin deciding the solution to this labour shortage is to loosen child labour laws rather than raise the minimum wage.

They're doing WHAT?

Yeah they’re trying to make it legal to make kids younger than 16 work until 11pm on certain days of the week.

[Antipatros]

So far as this whining about wages not being high enough, give me a break. You're paid what people are willing to pay you or what you're perceived to be worth if its not in relation to how productive/profitable your work is for your employer. The fact at the end of the day is, its impossible for everyone to be able to be paid a high wage. Doing so will cause too much inflation as is happening now. Everything costs too damn much as of now, because nothing can get produced/delivered as expected and energy costs are through the roof.

The price of labor goes up in a tight labor market. That's how markets are supposed to work.

[Saiwania]

The one scheme that could perhaps enable people to be given the highest wage that is possible for their work, and that is for the entire labor force to be unionized or to have a union for every single industry/business. Like how it is in Finland or Norway.

I'd back it because I like how stable/well off the Scandinavian countries are and don't have reason to believe it won't work at scale with a much larger population/economy. But I also expect that it perhaps won't only be upside with this approach, that perhaps it does have tradeoffs I'm not aware of.

[Deblar]

No, it wants to freeze it in the past

Yes. The past had morals and patriotism.

*looks at Jim Crow era*

You sure about that, mate?

[Genivaria]

The one scheme that could perhaps enable people to be given the highest wage that is possible for their work, and that is for the entire labor force to be unionized or to have a union for every single industry/business. Like how it is in Finland or Norway.

I'd back it because I like how stable/well off the Scandinavian countries are and don't have reason to believe it won't work at scale with a much larger population/economy. But I also expect that it perhaps won't only be upside with this approach, that perhaps it does have tradeoffs I'm not aware of.

Weird for you to make a productive suggestion without blatant racist fear-mongering. Are you ill?

[Dreria]

The labour shortage isn’t even real

The labor shortage is real in the sense that it's being artificially created by employers who refuse to negotiate wages, capitalist apologists like to claim that wages are 'agreed upon' between employee and employer and yet now when all these workers say they aren't willing to accept wages that won't pay the bills the employers slander them as 'lazy' instead of actually negotiating.
The employers have always held the cards because when one protests the low wage it's the employees problem, but now when millions protest low wages it's a problem for the employers.

No I’m actively trying to get hired at the places that claim to be short staffed and they just ignore you. It’s literally a lie

[Antipatros]

The one scheme that could perhaps enable people to be given the highest wage that is possible for their work, and that is for the entire labor force to be unionized or to have a union for every single industry/business. Like how it is in Finland or Norway.

I'd back it because I like how stable/well off the Scandinavian countries are and don't have reason to believe it won't work at scale with a much larger population/economy. But I also expect that it perhaps won't only be upside with this approach, that perhaps it does have tradeoffs I'm not aware of.

I prefer this sort of system (widespread unionization and a harmony of interests between business and labor) to government imposed minimum wages and workplace safety regulations. Government would ideally only start to step in when public safety becomes a factor.

[Ifreann]

No, it wants to freeze it in the past and preserve the interests of a tiny minority of powerful at the expense of everyone else. But that can't work, for so many reason, the most pressing one being climate change - by actively refusing to fight it, the right-wing is ensuring the nation won't endure. But there are many other threats, from growing inequality to crumbling infrastructure to insufficient education to ... that are all strongly damaging the nation's perspective, and the right-wing is doing their best to not only prevent fixing those, but actually them worse.

This isn't really an accurate assessment of modern right-wing populism. In many instances, they have changed quite substantially from their positions in the 1990s and 2000s, behaving far more progressively on key social issues, notably gay marriage. Milo Yiannopolous and the various gay skinheads should give us indication enough of this. And, far from being tokens, they have/had actual clout. This is probably most pronounced in Europe where gay men have been somewhat overrepresented in the higher echelons of the far-right since the 1980s and, recently, this has been employed as a cudgel against more socially conservative Muslim immigrants. The far-right is a bit miasmic of late, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare them to the paleocon and neocon "reactionaries" you rambled against in previous years. They're more defined by what they stand against than what they stand for, and I tend to view them as a symptom of the broader dissatisfaction with neoliberalism and globalization. Though there are other reasons they exist.

Milo Yiannopolous is straight now, allegedly.

[Alcala-Cordel]

They're doing WHAT?

Yeah they’re trying to make it legal to make kids younger than 16 work until 11pm on certain days of the week.

So much for school, sleep, and hanging out with friends