American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Jeriga]

According to ABC, exit polling is showing a no victory for Newsom

Exit polls are likely to skew Republican because most of the Democrats have already voted.

EDIT: Well, I read that weirdly formed sentence wrong. But the statement is still valid, so if exit polls for the day also reflect a no vote, "No recall" will probably be a blow out.

Yup. 43 percent in and 70 percent for Newsom:)

[San Lumen]

Well, NYT isn't calling it yet, but 65% of San Diego County's in and No's leading with 61% there, and you'd expect San Diego to be more in favour of a recall....

Orange County and inland. Inland is their only hope and inland doesn't have enough people to counterweight the coast.

Without Orange County a Republican wining statewide is impossible.

[The Lone Alliance]

Only because he should get some sort of negative consequence for going around the civilian control of government.

Didn't do that. Please for the love of god...read what actually happened. For fuck's sake.

If you really don't think that then let's have a court martial where he'll get acquitted.

[Tarsonis]

Exit polls are likely to skew Republican because most of the Democrats have already voted.

EDIT: Well, I read that weirdly formed sentence wrong. But the statement is still valid, so if exit polls for the day also reflect a no vote, "No recall" will probably be a blow out.

Yup. 43 percent in and 70 percent for Newsom:)

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

[Antipatros]

Not necessarily. If I think back to the 20th century, formal declarations of war before large scale attacks were definitely not the norm. It was more of a mixed bag.

If you go back to WWI or earlier, I would say that your statement is more true.

Try to sell me on a nuclear missile being a 'police action.'

I mean, the German attack on the Soviet Union was not preceded by a formal declaration of war. Germany didn't declare war on Poland before invading. Japan didn't declare war on the United States before Pearl Harbor. The Soviets didn't declare war on Finland before their invasion.

Those things are definitely more than police actions.

[Cannot think of a name]

Didn't do that. Please for the love of god...read what actually happened. For fuck's sake.

If you really don't think that then let's have a court martial where he'll get acquitted.

Court martial for what? Telling his staff to follow procedure? Since when does that trigger a court martial?

[Shrillland]

Yup. 43 percent in and 70 percent for Newsom:)

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

It was a hell of a gamble on the state Dems part, however. Not putting up a viable replacement candidate could've backfired easily.

[North Washington Republic]

Yup. 43 percent in and 70 percent for Newsom:)

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

Why did Republicans think that a someone like Larry Elder had a chance at beating any Democrat in a statewide race in California? Are they so goddamn isolated that they believe the entire country is MAGA land?

[Jeriga]

Yup. 43 percent in and 70 percent for Newsom:)

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

Nah. Not a great guy, but not the worst. He's doing well with covid-19

[Cannot think of a name]

Try to sell me on a nuclear missile being a 'police action.'

I mean, the German attack on the Soviet Union was not preceded by a formal declaration of war. Germany didn't declare war on Poland before invading. Japan didn't declare war on the United States before Pearl Harbor. The Soviets didn't declare war on Finland before their invasion.

Those things are definitely more than police actions.

First of all, I already provided a source about Japan fucking up their decleration of war, but they did try.

Second...yeah...Nazi Germany. Cool role model. Good example. I'm convinced.

For fuck's sake...

[Jeriga]

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

It was a hell of a gamble on the state Dems part, however. Not putting up a viable replacement candidate could've backfired easily.

No idea why they didn't do that

[Proctopeo]

Only because he should get some sort of negative consequence for going around the civilian control of government.

Didn't do that. Please for the love of god...read what actually happened. For fuck's sake.

You didn't read what actually happened. You didn't even read the totality of what you quoted.

[Cannot think of a name]

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

Why did Republicans think that a someone like Larry Elder had a chance at beating any Democrat in a statewide race in California? Are they so goddamn isolated that they believe the entire country is MAGA land?

Well, they didn't think he could win in a stand up fight so they triggered an off year special election in the hopes of a low turn out so that Elder could become governor with less than 30% of the vote. Fortunately someone realized the Republicans could win this thing if Democrats didn't vote so they put in the effort to make sure they did.

[Antipatros]

let's be clear, Newsome is a fuckstick. he's only winning because Californians woke up and realized the alternative would be worse.

Why did Republicans think that a someone like Larry Elder had a chance at beating any Democrat in a statewide race in California? Are they so goddamn isolated that they believe the entire country is MAGA land?

They wanted to try to sneak in Elder through a recall, using a turnout/enthusiasm gap to their advantage.

Now it looks like they want to use it to push the "rigged election" narrative some more. You know, the same narrative that led to this civilian/military confrontation that we're debating. These people make me sick.

[The Black Forrest]

It doesn't matter how you cut it, the fact remains that Milley successfully usurped the entire structure of civilian control over the military which has been the bedrock of civilian-military relations since the dawn of the US as a country. For almost three weeks, the US government was not in control over its own military.

It’s rather fascinating how you guys are “OMG we had a coup!” rather then seeing why the General felt he needed to do it? Could it be the CandC is not really stable? They way he raged on and on about the loss. They way he encouraged the insurrectionists?

Like it or not the General acted in what he thought was the best interests of the Nation.

Ask yourself his; has he cut off Biden or is the same thing in place? If it’s no? Sorry; not a coup.

[Antipatros]

I mean, the German attack on the Soviet Union was not preceded by a formal declaration of war. Germany didn't declare war on Poland before invading. Japan didn't declare war on the United States before Pearl Harbor. The Soviets didn't declare war on Finland before their invasion.

Those things are definitely more than police actions.

First of all, I already provided a source about Japan fucking up their decleration of war, but they did try.

Second...yeah...Nazi Germany. Cool role model. Good example. I'm convinced.

For fuck's sake...

Well, it's not only Nazi Germany. There are more examples.

I'm not convinced that a Cold War gone hot would be preceded by formal declarations of war either.

[The Lone Alliance]

If you really don't think that then let's have a court martial where he'll get acquitted.

Court martial for what? Telling his staff to follow procedure? Since when does that trigger a court martial?

Since when is it part of procedure to call another nation to give forewarning on the actual potential of was because you think your head of State is having a psychotic break?

Calling China is not part of procedure, it's not the military's job to tell another country's military on if they are or are not planning to go to war with them. That is a DIPLOMATIC action. Which is the charge of the civilian government last I checked. That job should have been passed along to Congress or literally anyone else.

Yes Trump and his supporters would still bitch and claim it's "Treason" to have Pelosi or whoever the fuck he found calling China to tell them "No we're not going to let Trump nuke you" but it still would have been a diplomatic action by the civilian government.

Hell they call Pelosi a traitor on every day ending in Y I'm sure it'd been no big deal for her.

[Cannot think of a name]

Why did Republicans think that a someone like Larry Elder had a chance at beating any Democrat in a statewide race in California? Are they so goddamn isolated that they believe the entire country is MAGA land?

They wanted to try to sneak in Elder through a recall, using a turnout/enthusiasm gap to their advantage.

Now it looks like they want to use it to push the "rigged election" narrative some more. You know, the same narrative that led to this civilian/military confrontation that we're debating. These people make me sick.

I was gettin' some cigars today which inevitably means I am in contact with the Trumpiest of the Republicans because if I'm being honest, smoking cigars is for douchebags but addiction is addiction. They are certainly working themselves up to believe it's all stolen but even in a support circle where they were trading unfounded conspiracies they couldn't mount much enthusiasm because they live here and even when they try to tell themselves that their positions were majority opinions in the end...nah. California at the moment is not interested in what the Republicans are selling. It's not a closed state, we gave the world Reagan and...ugh...Rush Limbaugh (his local show before going national was my hometown). Just the current Republican Party? No sale.

[Shrillland]

It was a hell of a gamble on the state Dems part, however. Not putting up a viable replacement candidate could've backfired easily.

No idea why they didn't do that

Like I said, it was a gamble. The state party was betting every last marble it had that the voters would see through a recall effort and vote to keep Newsom in.

[Jeriga]

Declarations of war are a legal thing these days. We've lost tens of thousands of soldiers in conflicts with no declaration. Declarations are useless.

[Shrillland]

They wanted to try to sneak in Elder through a recall, using a turnout/enthusiasm gap to their advantage.

Now it looks like they want to use it to push the "rigged election" narrative some more. You know, the same narrative that led to this civilian/military confrontation that we're debating. These people make me sick.

I was gettin' some cigars today which inevitably means I am in contact with the Trumpiest of the Republicans because if I'm being honest, smoking cigars is for douchebags but addiction is addiction. They are certainly working themselves up to believe it's all stolen but even in a support circle where they were trading unfounded conspiracies they couldn't mount much enthusiasm because they live here and even when they try to tell themselves that their positions were majority opinions in the end...nah. California at the moment is not interested in what the Republicans are selling. It's not a closed state, we gave the world Reagan and...ugh...Rush Limbaugh (his local show before going national was my hometown). Just the current Republican Party? No sale.

And California didn't even give us them. Reagan's from my home state, and Limbaugh was just across the river in Cape Girardeau.

[The Black Forrest]

I bolded your error. They enforced the rules in place to make sure that Trump did not try to do an end run around them. Key difference that apparently is just bouncing off people.

Well he supposedly called the Chinese government to inform them of his plan as well. That goes one step beyond the line, at least in my view.

It’s not like he called the Premier. He called his counterpart in the Chinese Military.

[Cannot think of a name]

First of all, I already provided a source about Japan fucking up their decleration of war, but they did try.

Second...yeah...Nazi Germany. Cool role model. Good example. I'm convinced.

For fuck's sake...

Well, it's not only Nazi Germany. There are more examples.

I'm not convinced that a Cold War gone hot would be preceded by formal declarations of war either.

Yeah, your other example wasn't really accurate and your third was...Soviet Russia. So...three for three.

He basically said that America would follow procedure in the use of our most powerful weapon. You guys keep pressing this like it's the worst thing in the world but it just sounds to me like the built in failsafes doing their job.

[The Lone Alliance]

Declarations of war are a legal thing these days. We've lost tens of thousands of soldiers in conflicts with no declaration. Declarations are useless.

Unfortunately due to events of the Cold War and the war on terror and other slippage over the years we stupidly gave the Executive branch more and more power to launch limited military engagements without Congress's permission.... Oops.

[Tarsonis]

Just for context, this is what we're all clenching our assholes over:


He made sure that any order to launch missiles went through the established procedure.

What a fucking villain.

Read more than the headlines.

>review the process for military action
>not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved
>"No matter what you are told,"

Seems like it was more than just missiles my guy, but literally any conceivable military action. That is to say, he de facto made himself the commander-in-chief for approximately 12 days. Soft coup.

When it comes to nuclear strikes specifically, the President is the one with the final say. While high-ranking military advisers are involved, their involvement is chiefly for the verification process.

And that should he a very sobering thought, when you realize that for 4 years in this country, the guy with final the authority to destroy the world, with no checks on that authority, was Donald Fucking Trump.