American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Corrian]

I just see it as the progressives, bizarrely enough, are ACTUALLY upholding the agenda put out there. Hell, it means Biden's agenda is better than I expected it to be. And the moderates want to ruin it. So progressives are just trying to uphold the presidents agenda. Makes sense to me.

[Postauthoritarian America]

It's absurd how the Democrat progressive wing want to keep their spending spree going when the debt keeps rising and the debt ceiling will need to be raised yet again. We're spending way too much.

You are aware the debt ceiling isn't about current spending? Picture it as getting a renovation done in your apartment or house. You wouldn't stiff the contractor after the job was done would you?
This might by oversimplifying it a bit but its the best way I can attempt to explain it.

That's exactly how Trump managed not to go bankrupt a seventh time. Say what you will the Republicans come by their economic policy ideas honestly.

[Postauthoritarian America]

It's absurd how the Democrat progressive wing want to keep their spending spree going when the debt keeps rising and the debt ceiling will need to be raised yet again. We're spending way too much.

I'm not too worried about a few trillion in extra spending in the short term, especially if that spending goes towards investments in our people. I think that we should also point out that the GOP went on a borrowing spree before going into the minority, like they always do.

When it comes to debt, I'm more concerned about the sustainability of Social Security and Medicare. Reforms will need to be made to those programs in order to keep them sustainable, but I doubt that those reforms will be seriously considered until a crisis point is reached. Depending on who has the political upper hand when that crisis point is reached, we could see Medicare and Social Security get gutted.

Shitcan the SS contribuion limit along with the filibuster. Problem solved.

[Antipatros]

What Biden really needs to do is set aside a day (or even several), sit down with the Jayapal, Sanders, Manchin, Sinema, Pelosi, and Schumer, and hammer out a deal. I understand that he's been holding separate meetings with these people, but maybe it's time to sit the whole group done and get this shit squared away.

These people need to be specific in what they want. Manchin and Sinema need to come up with a number that they're comfortable with, and a plan to get down to that number.

I'm not too worried about a few trillion in extra spending in the short term, especially if that spending goes towards investments in our people. I think that we should also point out that the GOP went on a borrowing spree before going into the minority, like they always do.

When it comes to debt, I'm more concerned about the sustainability of Social Security and Medicare. Reforms will need to be made to those programs in order to keep them sustainable, but I doubt that those reforms will be seriously considered until a crisis point is reached. Depending on who has the political upper hand when that crisis point is reached, we could see Medicare and Social Security get gutted.

Shitcan the SS contribuion limit along with the filibuster. Problem solved.

Easier said than done. Fixing Medicare will require another set of comprehensive healthcare reforms. That will require a strong Democratic trifecta, I think.

[Outer Sparta]

I just see it as the progressives, bizarrely enough, are ACTUALLY upholding the agenda put out there. Hell, it means Biden's agenda is better than I expected it to be. And the moderates want to ruin it. So progressives are just trying to uphold the presidents agenda. Makes sense to me.

They're not moderates, but those that are bought out by the corporate lobby. Manchin himself collects dividends from his son's coal firm and works not for WV, but for his donors. Sinema also seems to dodge her constituents but her state is nowhere as conservative as she is.

[Corrian]

I just see it as the progressives, bizarrely enough, are ACTUALLY upholding the agenda put out there. Hell, it means Biden's agenda is better than I expected it to be. And the moderates want to ruin it. So progressives are just trying to uphold the presidents agenda. Makes sense to me.

They're not moderates, but those that are bought out by the corporate lobby. Manchin himself collects dividends from his son's coal firm and works not for WV, but for his donors. Sinema also seems to dodge her constituents but her state is nowhere as conservative as she is.

Sinema knows she's pissing people off, considering she's done a complete 180 since she was a Green candidate apparently. So it seems like her new approach is to just hide.

[Kowani]

Senate votes to begin debate on the House-passed bill to suspend the debt ceiling (50-43)


time is a flat circle

[Lord Dominator]

What Biden really needs to do is set aside a day (or even several), sit down with the Jayapal, Sanders, Manchin, Sinema, Pelosi, and Schumer, and hammer out a deal. I understand that he's been holding separate meetings with these people, but maybe it's time to sit the whole group done and get this shit squared away.

These people need to be specific in what they want. Manchin and Sinema need to come up with a number that they're comfortable with, and a plan to get down to that number.

Absolutely agreed - on some level I think 3.5 on reconciliation might be out of reach, but we need to stop this whole long negotiation thing and just put something together everyone can hate equally.

[Corrian]

What Biden really needs to do is set aside a day (or even several), sit down with the Jayapal, Sanders, Manchin, Sinema, Pelosi, and Schumer, and hammer out a deal. I understand that he's been holding separate meetings with these people, but maybe it's time to sit the whole group done and get this shit squared away.

These people need to be specific in what they want. Manchin and Sinema need to come up with a number that they're comfortable with, and a plan to get down to that number.

Absolutely agreed - on some level I think 3.5 on reconciliation might be out of reach, but we need to stop this whole long negotiation thing and just put something together everyone can hate equally.

...So the usual half-assed measures. What's new.

[Lord Dominator]

Absolutely agreed - on some level I think 3.5 on reconciliation might be out of reach, but we need to stop this whole long negotiation thing and just put something together everyone can hate equally.

...So the usual half-assed measures. What's new.

Spending other than nothing, ideally on the reconciliation side of things

[Corrian]

Bernie is unsurprisingly on the side of the progressives in the House

[Kowani]

Congressional Black Caucus seems to be resolving to vote against the BIF if it gets a vote tonight
same goes for the Progressive Caucus

[Corrian]

Jayapal seems to have somehow become the progressive leader in these negotiations.

[Corrian]

Congressional Black Caucus seems to be resolving to vote against the BIF if it gets a vote tonight
same goes for the Progressive Caucus

I have been ninja'd

[Cannot think of a name]

Am I understanding this right? A handful of 'centrist' Democrats are holding up the agenda that the President ran on and the read of that situation is that aaaaaaaaallllllll the rest of the party should fold because they're the ones holding things up and not this handful of centrists? Was that his takeaway?

Is it because of that briar patch nonsense where we constantly have to be careful not to upset Republicans because they might get motivated to vote and instead continue to torpedo the agenda so that the Democratic base loses their enthusiasm voting for people who can't get shit passed because some dude in coal country or Connecticut or some bullshit will sink the ship rather than go with the party...that's what's for sale here?

I mean, when we win with a 50-50 margin in the Senate and a 220-212 margin in the House, working with those moderates (however loathsome) is the hand we've been dealt.

I guess the alternative is that we can sit on our hands, do nothing, and argue with each other.

Why is the onus not on the moderates and instead the majority of the party? Why are we blaming the group that has worked together for not catering to the people who won't?

[Senkaku]

> mfw Democratic centrists are so delusionally committed to the aesthetics of compromise that they’re willing to throw industrial civilization and transcontinental political unity in the toilet over it

I don't care about the aesthetics of compromise. I care more about getting shit done.

If we had more seats, I'd be all for telling the Republicans to pound sand. That being said, it's increasingly looking like the $3.5 trillion is not going to happen. Best that can probably happen at this point is a reduced reconciliation bill.

So you think that either way the country is about to watch the Democrats spectacularly fail to deliver on their agenda because of centrist obstruction, but that those who’ve been against such a failure up to now should suddenly decide to capitulate and betray themselves as the oligarchs’ running dogs who do nothing but offer crocodile tears during election cycles? I’m confused as to how a couple hundred billion dollars’ worth of fossil fuel-based infrastructure is going to do anything to arrest American decline on its own, given that passing it as such would also implode the base of the country’s only remaining semi-responsible political party and do absolutely fuck all to avert the imminent risk of a right-wing coup or civilization-ending climate change. Would you like to try and explain the moral or political calculus to poor ignorant souls like me?

[Senkaku]

What Biden really needs to do is set aside a day (or even several), sit down with the Jayapal, Sanders, Manchin, Sinema, Pelosi, and Schumer, and hammer out a deal.

The idea that leaders can just hammer out a deal if they get everyone around a table and want something badly enough is the most insidious delusion plaguing the Democratic Party in the 21st century

[Kowani]

Jayapal seems to have somehow become the progressive leader in these negotiations.

She's the chair of the CPC

---

Manchin doesn't see a deal tonight

[Alcala-Cordel]

It's absurd how the Democrat progressive wing want to keep their spending spree going when the debt keeps rising and the debt ceiling will need to be raised yet again. We're spending way too much.

Progressive democrats are like the one group not for wasting so much money on the army and you’re gonna go after them for this? I don’t like them either as I think they're overhyped and won't change much but their economic plan is nothing compared to the rest of Congress.

[Senkaku]

Am I understanding this right? A handful of 'centrist' Democrats are holding up the agenda that the President ran on and the read of that situation is that aaaaaaaaallllllll the rest of the party should fold because they're the ones holding things up and not this handful of centrists? Was that his takeaway?

Is it because of that briar patch nonsense where we constantly have to be careful not to upset Republicans because they might get motivated to vote and instead continue to torpedo the agenda so that the Democratic base loses their enthusiasm voting for people who can't get shit passed because some dude in coal country or Connecticut or some bullshit will sink the ship rather than go with the party...that's what's for sale here?

I mean, when we win with a 50-50 margin in the Senate and a 220-212 margin in the House, working with those moderates (however loathsome) is the hand we've been dealt.

I guess the alternative is that we can sit on our hands, do nothing, and argue with each other.

No, the alternative is to stop coddling people by politely arguing with them and letting them obstruct the popular will, and to start actually pressuring them until they have no choice but to bend. Why isn’t Biden denouncing Manchin and Sinema daily for stabbing them in the back, if this is truly the Democratic agenda, shared by House progressives and the White House?

(The answer of course, based on the agreement Schumer signed with Manchin and the White House’s apparent timidity at confronting Manchinema, is that they probably were never all that wedded to progressives’ wish list for reconciliation, and they’ve just been stringing people like you along so that you’ll now meekly swallow a vast reduction in the scope of this government’s ambition to help the American people.)

[Ngelmish]

I mean, when we win with a 50-50 margin in the Senate and a 220-212 margin in the House, working with those moderates (however loathsome) is the hand we've been dealt.

I guess the alternative is that we can sit on our hands, do nothing, and argue with each other.

Why is the onus not on the moderates and instead the majority of the party? Why are we blaming the group that has worked together for not catering to the people who won't?

Granted that it's a rhetorical question, but the onus is squarely on the centrists -- at least for the moment. It's hugely telling that they (and by "they," I mostly mean Manchin, Sinema and public commenters who reflexively swallow the argument that centrists by definition are moderate of which we have a few posters here) are the ones squealing right now.

[Senkaku]

Why is the onus not on the moderates and instead the majority of the party? Why are we blaming the group that has worked together for not catering to the people who won't?

Granted that it's a rhetorical question, but the onus is squarely on the centrists -- at least for the moment. It's hugely telling that they (and by "they," I mostly mean Manchin, Sinema and public commenters who reflexively swallow the argument that centrists by definition are moderate of which we have a few posters here) are the ones squealing right now.

I would get this impression too if I only kept up with news outlets and public figures who I like and trust, but the unfortunate truth is that a lot of major media outlets and senior political figures are actually framing it as just more impractical progressive puritanism to many millions of Americans, and it’s reasonable to expect that that will have effects both on how people see the Democratic Party and their general attitude towards the prospects for reform from any leftist or liberal tendency

[Antipatros]

I mean, when we win with a 50-50 margin in the Senate and a 220-212 margin in the House, working with those moderates (however loathsome) is the hand we've been dealt.

I guess the alternative is that we can sit on our hands, do nothing, and argue with each other.

Why is the onus not on the moderates and instead the majority of the party? Why are we blaming the group that has worked together for not catering to the people who won't?

Assigning moral blame to one side or the other does nothing to advance the agenda.

The reality here is that Manchin and Sinema have a veto over the Biden agenda. If we need to make adjustments in order to get something done, I say go ahead. That seems to be the Biden administration's intent at this point, with all of the language about passing "a reconciliation bill", rather than "the reconciliation bill".

EDIT: Sorry, I pasted the wrong link, here's the proper one: https://theweek.com/nancy-pelosi/1005531/pelosi-calls-reconciliation-bill-a-culmination-of-my-service-in-congress

Time is of the essence. The last time we had a trifecta was 2011. The last time before that was 1995.

I mean, when we win with a 50-50 margin in the Senate and a 220-212 margin in the House, working with those moderates (however loathsome) is the hand we've been dealt.

I guess the alternative is that we can sit on our hands, do nothing, and argue with each other.

No, the alternative is to stop coddling people by politely arguing with them and letting them obstruct the popular will, and to start actually pressuring them until they have no choice but to bend. Why isn’t Biden denouncing Manchin and Sinema daily for stabbing them in the back, if this is truly the Democratic agenda, shared by House progressives and the White House?

(The answer of course, based on the agreement Schumer signed with Manchin and the White House’s apparent timidity at confronting Manchinema, is that they probably were never all that wedded to progressives’ wish list for reconciliation, and they’ve just been stringing people like you along so that you’ll now meekly swallow a vast reduction in the scope of this government’s ambition to help the American people.)

Yelling at Manchin and Sinema does nothing. They give zero fucks (especially Manchin).

[Antipatros]

I don't care about the aesthetics of compromise. I care more about getting shit done.

If we had more seats, I'd be all for telling the Republicans to pound sand. That being said, it's increasingly looking like the $3.5 trillion is not going to happen. Best that can probably happen at this point is a reduced reconciliation bill.

So you think that either way the country is about to watch the Democrats spectacularly fail to deliver on their agenda because of centrist obstruction, but that those who’ve been against such a failure up to now should suddenly decide to capitulate and betray themselves as the oligarchs’ running dogs who do nothing but offer crocodile tears during election cycles? I’m confused as to how a couple hundred billion dollars’ worth of fossil fuel-based infrastructure is going to do anything to arrest American decline on its own, given that passing it as such would also implode the base of the country’s only remaining semi-responsible political party and do absolutely fuck all to avert the imminent risk of a right-wing coup or civilization-ending climate change. Would you like to try and explain the moral or political calculus to poor ignorant souls like me?

If we want to go there: Do you think that the $3.5 trillion bill will solve these issues? I don't think so.

[Senkaku]

No, the alternative is to stop coddling people by politely arguing with them and letting them obstruct the popular will, and to start actually pressuring them until they have no choice but to bend. Why isn’t Biden denouncing Manchin and Sinema daily for stabbing them in the back, if this is truly the Democratic agenda, shared by House progressives and the White House?

(The answer of course, based on the agreement Schumer signed with Manchin and the White House’s apparent timidity at confronting Manchinema, is that they probably were never all that wedded to progressives’ wish list for reconciliation, and they’ve just been stringing people like you along so that you’ll now meekly swallow a vast reduction in the scope of this government’s ambition to help the American people.)

Yelling at Manchin and Sinema does nothing. They give zero fucks (especially Manchin).

Good thing the White House & the party have more tools at their disposal than simply yelling! Now if only they’d use them…