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American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who do you think will win the Virginia Gubernatorial Race?

Terry McAuliffe(D)
57
57%
Glenn Youngkin(R)
43
43%
 
Total votes : 100

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Merrill
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Merrill » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:46 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Merrill wrote:
You must pay your employee a minimum wage. You must build a ramp for handicap access. There’s millions of pages of regulations across all levels of government if you have a business.

In the personal level, you must register your vehicle. In some places you must register your weapons (if you’re even allowed to have them). Most recently, you must wear a mask. You must put chemicals into your body.

Don’t say that laws and regulations are only must nots. That just isn’t true.

Businesses aren’t people and don’t have nearly the same rights as a person.

And while I will concede the point about must nots, have you got better examples than what are largely about public safety (the gun one excepted) of must dos that are actually unreasonably restrictive?


Businesses don’t exist in a vacuum. They are owned by people. In the case of large corporations, they are mostly owned by pension and other mutual funds. Regular, not rich people are planning their retirement on owning part of those businesses. Every law and regulation that hurts profit doesn’t really affect the rich. They already have wealth. It’s the everyman that’s trying to raise his family, care for elderly parents, plan for the future. That’s who gets hurt.

As for other personal ’must do’ examples, honestly I don’t right this minute. It’s late where I am. I’m sure I’ll think of more tomorrow, but that’s not really the point. You also could think of examples if you want to be open to viewpoints different than what has come to you in the past.
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:47 pm

Merrill would you care to respond to my post?
viewtopic.php?p=39009549#p39009549
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
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Merrill
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 497
Founded: Mar 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Merrill » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:53 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Merrill wrote:
Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

Explain how 'being rich' is an achievement and not a moral failing.


Amazon making more products available, at lower prices, allowing people to increase their standard of living isn’t a good thing? Those who are rich because of this success are moral failures?

In free enterprise, you “get rich” by selling products and services that people want. The more people who benefit from their transactions with you, the more money you bring in.
"There is no justification for taking away individuals' freedom in the guise of public safety." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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The Black Forrest
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Posts: 55601
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:57 pm

Merrill wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:Concentration camps too

Also increased taxes on the lower classes


What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.


45 wasn’t authoritarian in what sense? He did many things. Even now he seeks intrusion into the personal records of people under the lie of election integrity.

What about his travel bans? Several nations could not permanently emigrate to the US, nor could they work , vacation or study here. Even in the days of the USSR, they were not completely shut out. We even once had the Soviet Stealth expert give a chat.

Trump couldn’t act as he wanted due to the previous authoritarians. If Trump had his way he would have criminalized criticism against him. The problem? Adams did that before and people found that to be a bad idea.

Trump may not have been as authoritarian as some of his predecessors. However, to suggest he wasn’t that bad is a tad disingenuous.
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25020
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:59 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Merrill wrote:
What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.


45 wasn’t authoritarian in what sense?

45 isn't authoritarian in Merrill's sense because supporting the Stasi is not supporting authoritarian tyranny in his mind.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:59 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Merrill wrote:
What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.


45 wasn’t authoritarian in what sense? He did many things. Even now he seeks intrusion into the personal records of people under the lie of election integrity.

What about his travel bans? Several nations could not permanently emigrate to the US, nor could they work , vacation or study here. Even in the days of the USSR, they were not completely shut out. We even once had the Soviet Stealth expert give a chat.

Trump couldn’t act as he wanted due to the previous authoritarians. If Trump had his way he would have criminalized criticism against him. The problem? Adams did that before and people found that to be a bad idea.

Trump may not has been as authoritarian as some of his predecessors. However, to suggest he wasn’t that bad is a tad disingenuous.

Honestly this defense of 'well there more authoritarian presidents' sounds really strange coming from a self described 'libertarian'.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

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New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8686
Founded: Jan 31, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby New Visayan Islands » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:07 am

Merrill wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Punish achievement? What if I were to be the son of a billionaire father and I inherit his riches by doing fuck all and just because I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth? Does that make me have an achievement even though I literally would have done nothing in my life in that scenario except be born in the top .01%?


Ah, envy! But you’re too much of a coward to break into the mansion and rob the rich by yourself. So, you outsource your theft to government agencies in uniforms and carrying guns. You tell yourself that it’s not really robbery, after all, the majority of my neighbors voted and agreed that we should steal from the rich. You can lie to yourself, but the truth remains.

(Actionable portion underlined for emphasis.)
I would have left this be as a borderline case, but given your history, take *** three days off for flaming *** to read and review the Rules.

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Diahon
Senator
 
Posts: 4575
Founded: Apr 01, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Diahon » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:14 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
45 wasn’t authoritarian in what sense?

45 isn't authoritarian in Merrill's sense because supporting the Stasi is not supporting authoritarian tyranny in his mind.

more to the point, what trump does can't possibly be authoritarian if most of the things he says he wants to do, he was stopped from doing, so
Last edited by Diahon on Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159069
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:33 am

Merrill wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Sure to be a huge boost to the economy.



The term "privatisation" was coined to describe Hitler's economic policies of removing industries from state control and giving them over to private interests.


Controlling "the means of production" through laws, regulations, and choosing public/private partnerships is only one small step removed from seizing them.

Hitler didn't seize the means of production, he sold them.


Page wrote:For anyone who needs an ELI5 of "national socialism", the socialism part is all about private corporations producing what the state demands, and in the specific case of Nazi Germany, it was an economy of plunder. The Nazis said to German corporations: Build us tanks now and we'll pay you in bonds that you can cash in on when we conquer the East.

It is accurate to say that nationalism socialism is not socialism at all.

They just used that name because socialism was popular at the time.

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Antipatros
Minister
 
Posts: 2749
Founded: Aug 26, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Antipatros » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:09 am

Oh we're back onto debating Nazis/fascism?

To be fair, there were some more left-wing elements within the Nazi movement (e.g. Strasserists) . Many of them got purged in 1934, though. Hitler chose to build an alliance with the military and the industrialists, so he could have his wars.

The economic ideas behind Strasserism are also kind of weird. They advocated for a kind of guild socialism. It was essentially a return to the system we had prior to the development of modern capitalism, but with the state replacing the aristocracy. Of course, it was also infused with all the racist bullshit that we know Nazis for. Anti-capitalist yes, but pretty reactionary if you ask me.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:51 am

Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159069
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:59 am


Very entertaining watching Rudy's life fall apart.

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81250
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:03 am

Ifreann wrote:

Very entertaining watching Rudy's life fall apart.


Its amazing to me he was once a highly respected mayor and now he's gone full on insane. He could have been Governor had he run in 2006 or at least given Spitzer a race but instead ran quixotic bid for President.

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Diahon
Senator
 
Posts: 4575
Founded: Apr 01, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Diahon » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am


we're about to find out what's even worse than being a fuckboy of the '90s

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81250
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:12 am

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireSto ... s-80225724

Former Trump Press Secretary Sarah Sanders says she is nationalizing her gubernatorial run. Sanders is the frontrunner to be the next Governor of Arkansas. She would be the state's first woman governor if elected.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Antipatros
Minister
 
Posts: 2749
Founded: Aug 26, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Antipatros » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:18 am


The Decline and Fall of the Giuliani Empire.

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Deblar
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Jan 28, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Deblar » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:23 am

Merrill wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:Or, like, Hitler


Pinochet was an exception, and I'm not sure military dictatorships count as "on the right". Regardless, his regime was certainly authoritarian, which I oppose regardless of economic policy.

Not inherently, but in practice they often are, and Pinochet especially was

Hitler was NOT right wing politically.

Yes he was. He despised socialism. And don't give me "he worked with the Soviet Union" bullcrap. 1, it was convenient at the time. 2, he eventually stabbed them in the back and aimed to wipe them off the face of the earth.

That is one of the worst propaganda of the last 100 years. The National SOCIALIST Workers Party

Semantics, they weren't actually socialists

only differed from the Soviet Union in the idea of where socialism should be focused: nationally, or internationally.

Oh, the Soviets focused it internationally, all right; if they didn't, there'd be no Warsaw Pact

Fascism and Communism are both on the far left of the economic axis, with very little space between them.

No, they're not. They were Third Position, quite different from the communist system of the Soviet Union. Not even on the left wing of the spectrum, much less far left.

Post WW2, the Communists spread the idea that Fascists were "Right Wing", so that communism was defined as the center, or the norm.

Communism isn't the center, as we know already, but fascism still isn't left wing.

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Senkaku
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25685
Founded: Sep 01, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Senkaku » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:23 am

San Lumen wrote:https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nationalizing-governor-run-bet-sanders-80225724

Former Trump Press Secretary Sarah Sanders says she is nationalizing her gubernatorial run. Sanders is the frontrunner to be the next Governor of Arkansas. She would be the state's first woman governor if elected.

has anyone made a Huck Dynasty joke yet


Merrill wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Explain how 'being rich' is an achievement and not a moral failing.


Amazon making more products available, at lower prices, allowing people to increase their standard of living isn’t a good thing?

There’s a little more to the concept of a standard of living than “widget get cheaper, life get better”

Antipatros wrote:Oh we're back onto debating Nazis/fascism?

I think there’s also a weird taxation is theft thing happening; let’s just stick to laughing at Rudy’s slow public implosion
agreed honey. send bees

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Alcala-Cordel
Senator
 
Posts: 4161
Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:24 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Very entertaining watching Rudy's life fall apart.


Its amazing to me he was once a highly respected mayor and now he's gone full on insane. He could have been Governor had he run in 2006 or at least given Spitzer a race but instead ran quixotic bid for President.

He's always been insane, he didn't deserve the respect.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159069
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:25 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Very entertaining watching Rudy's life fall apart.


Its amazing to me he was once a highly respected mayor and now he's gone full on insane. He could have been Governor had he run in 2006 or at least given Spitzer a race but instead ran quixotic bid for President.

He was always insane, all that's changed is his ability to manage his image. His status as "America's mayor" was a well conducted PR operation. He was a terrible mayor. His leadership definitely cost lives on 9/11. People died who might have lived had someone other than Rudolph William Louis Giuliani had been mayor of New York.

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North Washington Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 3090
Founded: Mar 13, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby North Washington Republic » Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:36 am

Ifreann wrote:

Very entertaining watching Rudy's life fall apart.


I will not be personally satisfied until Rudy is charged with seditious conspiracy and is in jail. I also believe it’s also in the interest of Justice that Rudy and others that participated in the MAGA coup be in jail.
Last edited by North Washington Republic on Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5948
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:15 am

Antipatros wrote:Oh we're back onto debating Nazis/fascism?

To be fair, there were some more left-wing elements within the Nazi movement (e.g. Strasserists) . Many of them got purged in 1934, though. Hitler chose to build an alliance with the military and the industrialists, so he could have his wars.

The economic ideas behind Strasserism are also kind of weird. They advocated for a kind of guild socialism. It was essentially a return to the system we had prior to the development of modern capitalism, but with the state replacing the aristocracy. Of course, it was also infused with all the racist bullshit that we know Nazis for. Anti-capitalist yes, but pretty reactionary if you ask me.

Hitler didn't really build an alliance with the military, he took advantage of political splits within it and personal scandals in its high command to purge the leadership of those who were not readily controllable.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
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Antipatros
Minister
 
Posts: 2749
Founded: Aug 26, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Antipatros » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:20 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Antipatros wrote:Oh we're back onto debating Nazis/fascism?

To be fair, there were some more left-wing elements within the Nazi movement (e.g. Strasserists) . Many of them got purged in 1934, though. Hitler chose to build an alliance with the military and the industrialists, so he could have his wars.

The economic ideas behind Strasserism are also kind of weird. They advocated for a kind of guild socialism. It was essentially a return to the system we had prior to the development of modern capitalism, but with the state replacing the aristocracy. Of course, it was also infused with all the racist bullshit that we know Nazis for. Anti-capitalist yes, but pretty reactionary if you ask me.

Hitler didn't really build an alliance with the military, he took advantage of political splits within it and personal scandals in its high command to purge the leadership of those who were not readily controllable.

He took out only a handful of generals though, right? The bulk of them fell into line. Same thing with the conservatives.

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Punished UMN
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5948
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:26 am

Antipatros wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Hitler didn't really build an alliance with the military, he took advantage of political splits within it and personal scandals in its high command to purge the leadership of those who were not readily controllable.

He took out only a handful of generals though, right? The bulk of them fell into line. Same thing with the conservatives.

He took out the two highest ranking ones who dominated the establishment and had them replaced with flunkies.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

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Shrillland
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21070
Founded: Apr 12, 2010
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Shrillland » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:29 am

Ifreann wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Its amazing to me he was once a highly respected mayor and now he's gone full on insane. He could have been Governor had he run in 2006 or at least given Spitzer a race but instead ran quixotic bid for President.

He was always insane, all that's changed is his ability to manage his image. His status as "America's mayor" was a well conducted PR operation. He was a terrible mayor. His leadership definitely cost lives on 9/11. People died who might have lived had someone other than Rudolph William Louis Giuliani had been mayor of New York.


And even before that...never forget PATCO.
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