American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Lord Dominator]

Hell no, the
Nazis
were not socialists. They were openly far right, neo-Nazis are openly far-right, they have ties to other far right groups, and they targeted socialists and put them in concentration camps.

Are you responding to someone in particular?

Merill was earlier arguing that Nazis and socialists were basically the same, and showed their work by quoting an article that only cites one other thing in it’s entirety (the reading list is probably good, but it’s not a bibliography or proper works cited).

[Merrill]

Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

Should the 18th Duke of Norfolk pay more in taxes? If yes then why is the American equivalent exempt despite doing fuck all to earn his wealth?

No one should pay a different rate. That’s what is fair and just.

[Genivaria]

Should the 18th Duke of Norfolk pay more in taxes? If yes then why is the American equivalent exempt despite doing fuck all to earn his wealth?

No one should pay a different rate. That’s what is fair and just.

Why when we don't make the same rate?

[Merrill]

So you have no issues with his extremely expansive claims of executive authority, active and continuing attempts to undermine democracy, hatred of media that isn’t entirely fawning of him (and attempts to undermine that), willingness to deploy the military in the domestic homeland, or any of the other things he did that served to undermine some aspect of a free society ruled by constitutional order?

Concentration camps too

Also increased taxes on the lower classes

What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.

What taxes were raised?

[Lord Dominator]

So you have no issues with his extremely expansive claims of executive authority, active and continuing attempts to undermine democracy, hatred of media that isn’t entirely fawning of him (and attempts to undermine that), willingness to deploy the military in the domestic homeland, or any of the other things he did that served to undermine some aspect of a free society ruled by constitutional order?

Trump said a lot, but then didn’t do it. Please provide examples of actual executive actions greater than his predecessors. Sure, he hated the media. Did he jail any of them like Obama did? Define “undermining democracy”. Did he contest elections? Yes. Did he refuse to step down? No. When was the military deployed? At the border? Frankly, that’s where the military should be.

I get it. People don’t like Trump. Like many New Yorkers he blusters a lot. I care much, much more about his actions. Were they all good? No, definitely not. However, they were less authoritarian than previous Presidents. He wasn’t the closest to a dictator we ever had. Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR battle for that title.

Undermining doesn’t need specific action to have occurred, his words were frequently enough to shape the opinions of tens of millions. In any case:

He actively and frequently denigrated all media even remotely critical of him, deliberately installed cronies at our few outlets of state media (they’re the ones we run oversees) to do the same, restricted critical media access to him on a regular basis, convinced his voters that all opposing media is largely lies, and so forth. How exactly does any of this not undermine the media?

He claimed massive fraud in both elections he was in - 2016 he created a whole task force out his delusion to find missing votes. In 2020 he filed (or had filed on his behalf rather) dozens of spurious court cases, openly called the whole thing fraudulent, repeatedly attempted to get other people to break laws (both state, national, and the constitution) to get him to win. A decent chunk to majority of Republicans are still convinced he won. His supporters literally invaded Congress in pursuit of making him President. What about this doesn’t undermine democracy.

He openly mused about deploying the military against rioters and protestors in summer 2020.

I notice you didn’t reply to my mentions of his expansive definitions of executive authority either (in sp far as they were more expansive than prior presidents).

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Should the 18th Duke of Norfolk pay more in taxes? If yes then why is the American equivalent exempt despite doing fuck all to earn his wealth?

No one should pay a different rate. That’s what is fair and just.

20% off somebody earning $10/day makes them starve. 20% off somebody getting several millions a month is nothing. Why does this not compute in your brain?

[Diahon]

this is all incredibly laugh-inducing, but at least all this delineation has made clear for me that authoritarianism is essentially government, no matter how popular, and especially if it is popular, doing things to improve the lot of the masses, instead of letting the rich maybe someday if you plead real hard and real long do the improving

[Genivaria]

Here Merril since you don't wish to argue for your principles let me show you what Paine actually thinks.

Means by which the fund is to be created.
I have already established the principle, namely, that the earth, in
its natural uncultivated state was, and ever would have continued to
be, the common property of the human race, that in that state, every
person would have been born to property; and that the system of
landed property, by its inseparable connection with cultivation, and
with what is called civilized life, has absorbed the property of all
those whom it dispossessed, without providing, as ought to have
been done, an indemnification for that loss.

The fault, however, is not in the present possessors. No
complaint is intended, or ought to be alleged against them, unless
they adopt the crime by opposing justice. The fault is in the system,
and it has stolen imperceptibly upon the world, aided afterwards by
the agrarian law of the sword. But the fault can be made to reform
itself by successive generations; and without diminishing or
deranging the property of any of the present possessors, the operation
11
of the fund can yet commence, and be in full activity, the first year of
its establishment, or soon after, as I shall shew.

It is proposed that the payments, as already stated, be made to
every person, rich or poor. It is best to make it so, to prevent
invidious distinctions. It is also right it should be so, because it is in
lieu of the natural inheritance, which, as a right, belongs to every
man, over and above the property he may have created, or inherited
from those who did. Such persons as do not choose to receive it can
throw it into the common fund.


Taking it then for granted that no person ought to be in a worse
condition when born under what is called a state of civilization, than
he would have been had he been born in a state of nature, and that
civilization ought to have made, and ought still to make, provision
for that purpose, it can only be done by subtracting from property a
portion equal in value to the natural inheritance it has absorbed.


Various methods may be proposed for this purpose, but that
which appears to be the best (not only because it will operate without
deranging any present possessors, or without interfering with the
collection of taxes or emprunts necessary for the purposes of
government and the revolution, but because it will be the least
troublesome and the most effectual, and also because the subtraction
will be made at a time that best admits it) is at the moment that
property is passing by the death of one person to the possession of
another.

In this case, the bequeather gives nothing: the receiver pays
nothing. The only matter to him is that the monopoly of natural
inheritance, to which there never was a right, begins to cease in his
person. A generous man would not wish it to continue, and a just
man will rejoice to see it abolished.

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

That's from Paine's Agrarian Justice, I suggest you read it sometime.

Private property was created by the sword and kept by the sword through violence, Paine only defended the base necessity of it and never tried to make any moral justification for it. It was (at least in his view) no less a necessary evil than government itself.

[Merrill]

Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

If achievement is the preferred form of wealth gathering, I presume you’re fine with massive inheritance taxes (say, any non-land or similar assets worth more than a few million)?

The fundamental principle that I’m trying to express is that it’s not the government’s money by default. Why should the heirs of a family farm (yes, most family farms are worth a lot now) have to sell that farm to Con-Agra or Monsanto in order to pay an estate tax?

It’s both ironic and horrible that the people who are most antagonistic to large corporations want to enact policies that benefit those same businesses.

[Lord Dominator]

Concentration camps too

Also increased taxes on the lower classes

What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.

What taxes were raised?

See here, where the long-term analysis of his tax cuts shows that by 2023, those making under 40k will be paying a high tax rate, by 2027 so will everyone under 100k while those making more continue to pay less (again, still subject to the my previously explanation of income tax brackets).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Cuts_ ... y_year.png

[Genivaria]

If achievement is the preferred form of wealth gathering, I presume you’re fine with massive inheritance taxes (say, any non-land or similar assets worth more than a few million)?

The fundamental principle that I’m trying to express is that it’s not the government’s money by default. Why should the heirs of a family farm (yes, most family farms are worth a lot now) have to sell that farm to Con-Agra or Monsanto in order to pay an estate tax?

It’s both ironic and horrible that the people who are most antagonistic to large corporations want to enact policies that benefit those same businesses.

No you're right it comes from the money fairy.

It’s both ironic and horrible that the people who are most antagonistic to large corporations want to enact policies that benefit those same businesses

Whew that is some serious cognitive dissonance you must be feeling.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Concentration camps too

Also increased taxes on the lower classes

What concentration camps? Detention centers for illegal immigrants? The same ones Obama had? How about FDR interning actual CITIZENS because of their ethnicity?

Again Trump wasn’t perfect, but he was less authoritarian than prior Presidents.

What taxes were raised?

Where the hell did I say I liked Obama? Go through my history on this website, I've always been very clear about how I feel about presidents. Yeah, Obama had concentration camps. Trump made them significantly worse, but they were concentration camps all the same. It doesn’t justify it in the slightest, and make no mistake, they are concentration camps. Call them what you want though, they're a fucking crime against humanity. And yeah, FDR had concentration camps as well.

Onto taxes, here's some more evidence. He did cut taxes for the ultrawealtht, though.

[Lord Dominator]

If achievement is the preferred form of wealth gathering, I presume you’re fine with massive inheritance taxes (say, any non-land or similar assets worth more than a few million)?

The fundamental principle that I’m trying to express is that it’s not the government’s money by default. Why should the heirs of a family farm (yes, most family farms are worth a lot now) have to sell that farm to Con-Agra or Monsanto in order to pay an estate tax?

It’s both ironic and horrible that the people who are most antagonistic to large corporations want to enact policies that benefit those same businesses.

I’m fine with rather looser rules on the inheritance of family farms, but nearly all the instances inheritance tax applies are not family farms.

Again however, massive inheritance is rather contradictory to any notion of personal achievement being the way to get wealthy.

[Merrill]

Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

Punish achievement? What if I were to be the son of a billionaire father and I inherit his riches by doing fuck all and just because I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth? Does that make me have an achievement even though I literally would have done nothing in my life in that scenario except be born in the top .01%?

Ah, envy! But you’re too much of a coward to break into the mansion and rob the rich by yourself. So, you outsource your theft to government agencies in uniforms and carrying guns. You tell yourself that it’s not really robbery, after all, the majority of my neighbors voted and agreed that we should steal from the rich. You can lie to yourself, but the truth remains.

[Page]

For anyone who needs an ELI5 of "national socialism", the socialism part is all about private corporations producing what the state demands, and in the specific case of Nazi Germany, it was an economy of plunder. The Nazis said to German corporations: Build us tanks now and we'll pay you in bonds that you can cash in on when we conquer the East.

It is accurate to say that nationalism socialism is not socialism at all.

[Lord Dominator]

Punish achievement? What if I were to be the son of a billionaire father and I inherit his riches by doing fuck all and just because I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth? Does that make me have an achievement even though I literally would have done nothing in my life in that scenario except be born in the top .01%?

Ah, envy! But you’re too much of a coward to break into the mansion and rob the rich by yourself. So, you outsource your theft to government agencies in uniforms and carrying guns. You tell yourself that it’s not really robbery, after all, the majority of my neighbors voted and agreed that we should steal from the rich. You can lie to yourself, but the truth remains.

You know, your definition of robbery in this context applies to all taxes, not just income, as well as the enforcement of all laws.

[Genivaria]

For anyone who needs an ELI5 of "national socialism", the socialism part is all about private corporations producing what the state demands, and in the specific case of Nazi Germany, it was an economy of plunder. The Nazis said to German corporations: Build us tanks now and we'll pay you in bonds that you can cash in on when we conquer the East.

It is accurate to say that nationalism socialism is not socialism at all.

The only caveat I'd throw in is that the Nazis WERE more socialist before Hitler you know, had all the socialists in his party killed.

[Genivaria]

Ah, envy! But you’re too much of a coward to break into the mansion and rob the rich by yourself. So, you outsource your theft to government agencies in uniforms and carrying guns. You tell yourself that it’s not really robbery, after all, the majority of my neighbors voted and agreed that we should steal from the rich. You can lie to yourself, but the truth remains.

You know, your definition of robbery in this context applies to all taxes, not just income, as well as the enforcement of all laws.

It's very suspicious that 'taxation is robbery' only when talking about the rich.

[Lord Dominator]

For anyone who needs an ELI5 of "national socialism", the socialism part is all about private corporations producing what the state demands, and in the specific case of Nazi Germany, it was an economy of plunder. The Nazis said to German corporations: Build us tanks now and we'll pay you in bonds that you can cash in on when we conquer the East.

It is accurate to say that nationalism socialism is not socialism at all.

The only caveat I'd throw in is that the Nazis WERE more socialist before Hitler you know, had all the socialists in his party killed.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure actual socialists of the “government owns the stuff” variety are also less keen of having every part of the government compete with one another for idiotic reasons

[Lord Dominator]

You know, your definition of robbery in this context applies to all taxes, not just income, as well as the enforcement of all laws.

It's very suspicious that 'taxation is robbery' only when talking about the rich.

And only to income tax

[Alcala-Cordel]

Punish achievement? What if I were to be the son of a billionaire father and I inherit his riches by doing fuck all and just because I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth? Does that make me have an achievement even though I literally would have done nothing in my life in that scenario except be born in the top .01%?

Ah, envy! But you’re too much of a coward to break into the mansion and rob the rich by yourself. So, you outsource your theft to government agencies in uniforms and carrying guns. You tell yourself that it’s not really robbery, after all, the majority of my neighbors voted and agreed that we should steal from the rich. You can lie to yourself, but the truth remains.

1) Some people did rob the rich last summer lol

2) the rich pay just about (and sometimes exactly) nothing in taxes, and a huge chunk of tax money goes to the army and cops as well as corporate subsidies. That's right, it's coming from the poor to the rich rather than the other way aroind

3) Robin Hood was right

4) rich people steal enormous portions of the value of our labor constantly. That's worth complaining about more than taxes.

[Genivaria]

The only caveat I'd throw in is that the Nazis WERE more socialist before Hitler you know, had all the socialists in his party killed.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure actual socialists of the “government owns the stuff” variety are also less keen of having every part of the government compete with one another for idiotic reasons

Yes Hitler's idiotic views on Social Darwinism did more to undermine the Nazis than any assassin's bullet could've.

[Lord Dominator]

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure actual socialists of the “government owns the stuff” variety are also less keen of having every part of the government compete with one another for idiotic reasons

Yes Hitler's idiotic views on Social Darwinism did more to undermine the Nazis than any assassin's bullet could've.

His willingness to declare war on the US for no good reason certainly didn’t help either

Or basing an economy on plundering other countries

Or on slave labor that you’re deliberately trying to kill

Or piss-poor strategic goals when it came to Soviet invasion

Or…

[Genivaria]

Yes Hitler's idiotic views on Social Darwinism did more to undermine the Nazis than any assassin's bullet could've.

His willingness to declare war on the US for no good reason certainly didn’t help either

Or basing an economy on plundering other countries

Or on slave labor that you’re deliberately trying to kill

Or piss-poor strategic goals when it came to Soviet invasion

Or…

It's telling that every scenario that Nazi Germany could've won the war always includes "Don't fucking be Nazis."

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Yes that's right THAT is the horrifying example, not the utterly dehumanizing abortion law that Texas just introduced.

You mean the law that is a good step towards recognizing that a fertilized egg is new human life? That HUMANIZING law?

Meanwhile...
This liberty nonsense coming from our current neolib libertarian is... exquisite hypocrisy of the highest calibre.