American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Merrill]

The one that allowed people (including Democrat billionaires like Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc.) to keep more of THEIR OWN MONEY?!? Yeah, that was a good start. Didn't go nearly far enough, though.

Do you think that the State owns everything, and that lower tax rates are some kind of gift?

Lower tax rates for billionaires? Definitely a grift. Not sure why you think that billionaires deserve lower taxes unless you yourself have a rich portfolio to protect by voting for Trump and the GOP in 2020.

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

[Outer Sparta]

Lower tax rates for billionaires? Definitely a grift. Not sure why you think that billionaires deserve lower taxes unless you yourself have a rich portfolio to protect by voting for Trump and the GOP in 2020.

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

Do you think taxation = theft?

[Merrill]

The one that allowed people (including Democrat billionaires like Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc.)

Their politics are irrelevant to their wealth, and how deserved it is.

Do you think that the State owns everything, and that lower tax rates are some kind of gift?

It’s back pay + interest based for all the wonderful things they get free of charge from a functioning state, particularly one as globally powerful as the US.

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

[Lord Dominator]

Lower tax rates for billionaires? Definitely a grift. Not sure why you think that billionaires deserve lower taxes unless you yourself have a rich portfolio to protect by voting for Trump and the GOP in 2020.

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

You shouldn’t, because you aren’t a government and can make no reasonable claim to be acting with any form of mandate from the people.

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

Do you think taxation = theft?

I think you know the answer to that

[Merrill]

Not really. The US government has been Fascist since FDR, it's just a question of degree.

If you think you own property, but you aren't free to use it as you want, are you really free, and do you really own it?

Same question for wage earners: If the government takes an ever increasing percentage of your income, and controls what you can do with it, aren't they stealing your labor?

If you think the US government has been fascist since FDR, which admins would you rank as most fascist in your mind?

LBJ, Nixon, Bush the Younger, and Obama.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Their politics are irrelevant to their wealth, and how deserved it is.

It’s back pay + interest based for all the wonderful things they get free of charge from a functioning state, particularly one as globally powerful as the US.

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

What's 50% of $10/day vs 50% of $2 million/day?

[Outer Sparta]

If you think the US government has been fascist since FDR, which admins would you rank as most fascist in your mind?

LBJ, Nixon, Bush the Younger, and Obama.

Where does Trump stand on your fascism ranking? Or do you think he's one of the best ever presidents?

[Lord Dominator]

Their politics are irrelevant to their wealth, and how deserved it is.

It’s back pay + interest based for all the wonderful things they get free of charge from a functioning state, particularly one as globally powerful as the US.

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

Random billionaire pays the same tax rate on the first 9700 that I do, and the same rate on the amount between 9701 & 39475 as I do - and they pay the same rate on all their income over the first 510301 as everyone else who makes that much does. Everyone is paying the same %, it’s just that portions of income are taxed at different rates (and not as many people have the upper rates).

[Outer Sparta]

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

Random billionaire pays the same tax rate on the first 9700 that I do, and the same rate on the amount between 9701 & 39475 as I do - and they pay the same rate on all their income over the first 510301 as everyone else who makes that much does. Everyone is paying the same %, it’s just that portions of income are taxed at different rates (and not as many people have the upper rates).

Marginal tax rates for the wealthy have been as high as 92% (under the Eisenhower administration). Those rates at 70% or above are not outliers, they have been done before. What are the outliers are the current marginal tax rates on the wealthy, started by Reagan's administration reducing that.

[Merrill]

Not really. The US government has been Fascist since FDR, it's just a question of degree.

If we’re going down this rabbit hole, please define fascism

If you think you own property, but you aren't free to use it as you want, are you really free, and do you really own it?

If I own a gun, but I’m not allowed to shoot someone with it, do I really own the gun?

Extremes aside, not being allowed to do certain things with your property doesn’t make it not your property - being told precisely what to do with it does.

Same question for wage earners: If the government takes an ever increasing percentage of your income, and controls what you can do with it, aren't they stealing your labor?

I can safely say they are not stealing my labor, particularly as I work voluntarily and they’re taking some portion of the proceeds (not the labor itself). And again, there is no control of what I do with my income.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html:
"As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism."

In many areas, you aren't free to shoot when you should be, for example if you are being attacked. Many progressive areas still have the absurd "duty to retreat" doctrine.

There are many laws and regulations that do tell people exactly what they must do both personally, with their bodies, property, and with their remaining income.

[Merrill]

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

Do you think taxation = theft?

Yes. Thomas Paine: "Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

Government exists to protect Life, Liberty, and Property. Unfortunately, this requires funding. Still, we should ensure that government doesn't exceed its bounds, so that the burden is as small as possible. We should also require that everyone contribute, since everyone benefits. Whether that is a flat tax rate, sacrificing time from your life in national service, or some other option, everyone should have skin in the game equally.

[Lord Dominator]

If we’re going down this rabbit hole, please define fascism

If I own a gun, but I’m not allowed to shoot someone with it, do I really own the gun?

Extremes aside, not being allowed to do certain things with your property doesn’t make it not your property - being told precisely what to do with it does.

I can safely say they are not stealing my labor, particularly as I work voluntarily and they’re taking some portion of the proceeds (not the labor itself). And again, there is no control of what I do with my income.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html:
"As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism."

I’m very convinced by a Libertarian leaning site with an article on fascism that makes precisely one citation to any other text and has no discussion of any of the social aspects of either ideology. Some similarity in their economics is not convincing, what evidence do you have of their supposed similarity in philosophy, goals, and conceptions of power.

In many areas, you aren't free to shoot when you should be, for example if you are being attacked. Many progressive areas still have the absurd "duty to retreat" doctrine.

That’s a solid whooshing sound

There are many laws and regulations that do tell people exactly what they must do both personally, with their bodies, property, and with their remaining income.

Wrong, there are many laws telling them what they can’t do. Not all of them are ones I agree with, but they’re still not telling me what to do.

[Merrill]

Your moral compass is skewed. It's okay to steal from someone because you don't think they deserve what they have? Should I gather together a mob and confiscate the wealth of every employee of the EPA? Or the BATFE?

You shouldn’t, because you aren’t a government and can make no reasonable claim to be acting with any form of mandate from the people.

Do you think taxation = theft?

I think you know the answer to that

Oh, so the will of the majority determines morality? There's no objective truth, or standards? Welcome to postmodernism.

Government has no authority except what has been granted to it by the people. Therefore, it it is wrong for me to do it, it's wrong for the government.

If my neighbor is being attacked, it is morally right for me to use force to help him defend himself. Thus, the police have authority to intervene in assaults, theft, murder, etc. It is morally wrong for me to rob my neighbor just because I don't think he deserves what he has. Therefore, the government has no authority to do so also.

[Lord Dominator]

Do you think taxation = theft?

Yes. Thomas Paine: "Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

Paine is certainly a wonderful person philosophically, but why should we follow his ideas on governance centuries after his death?

[Merrill]

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

What's 50% of $10/day vs 50% of $2 million/day?

What's your point? Also, no one should be taxed half their earnings. At what point do you just become a serf?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You shouldn’t, because you aren’t a government and can make no reasonable claim to be acting with any form of mandate from the people.
I think you know the answer to that

Oh, so the will of the majority determines morality? There's no objective truth, or standards? Welcome to postmodernism.

Government has no authority except what has been granted to it by the people. Therefore, it it is wrong for me to do it, it's wrong for the government.

If my neighbor is being attacked, it is morally right for me to use force to help him defend himself. Thus, the police have authority to intervene in assaults, theft, murder, etc. It is morally wrong for me to rob my neighbor just because I don't think he deserves what he has. Therefore, the government has no authority to do so also.

If you think paying your patriotic duties is too bloody onerous you are entirely welcome to found your own country on some abandoned Pacific islet.

What's 50% of $10/day vs 50% of $2 million/day?

What's your point? Also, no one should be taxed half their earnings. At what point do you just become a serf?

One guy starves and the other doesn't. This isn't rocket science lol.

[Lord Dominator]

You shouldn’t, because you aren’t a government and can make no reasonable claim to be acting with any form of mandate from the people.
I think you know the answer to that

Oh, so the will of the majority determines morality? There's no objective truth, or standards? Welcome to postmodernism.

Government has no authority except what has been granted to it by the people. Therefore, it it is wrong for me to do it, it's wrong for the government.

If my neighbor is being attacked, it is morally right for me to use force to help him defend himself. Thus, the police have authority to intervene in assaults, theft, murder, etc. It is morally wrong for me to rob my neighbor just because I don't think he deserves what he has. Therefore, the government has no authority to do so also.

The will of the majority does determine many elements of morality in a democracy, yes - and when we’re talking about taxes, that’s generally a very large majority indeed.

[Lord Dominator]

What's 50% of $10/day vs 50% of $2 million/day?

What's your point? Also, no one should be taxed half their earnings. At what point do you just become a serf?

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

Random billionaire pays the same tax rate on the first 9700 that I do, and the same rate on the amount between 9701 & 39475 as I do - and they pay the same rate on all their income over the first 510301 as everyone else who makes that much does. Everyone is paying the same %, it’s just that portions of income are taxed at different rates (and not as many people have the upper rates).

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Oh, so the will of the majority determines morality? There's no objective truth, or standards? Welcome to postmodernism.

Government has no authority except what has been granted to it by the people. Therefore, it it is wrong for me to do it, it's wrong for the government.

If my neighbor is being attacked, it is morally right for me to use force to help him defend himself. Thus, the police have authority to intervene in assaults, theft, murder, etc. It is morally wrong for me to rob my neighbor just because I don't think he deserves what he has. Therefore, the government has no authority to do so also.

If you think paying your patriotic duties is too bloody onerous you are entirely welcome to found your own country on some abandoned Pacific islet.

Or move to that British islet in the middle of the Pacific, but I've heard they have a serious pedophile problem.

[Merrill]

LBJ, Nixon, Bush the Younger, and Obama.

Where does Trump stand on your fascism ranking? Or do you think he's one of the best ever presidents?

Just because someone is a "big meanie", that's not fascism. Was he perfect? No! However, his policies allowed us to be more free. Reduced taxes, drastically reduced regulations, didn't start any new wars, made progress on pulling the military back from the forward position in other nations, pressured those nations to pay more for their own defense, and let the states handle the lockdowns, mandates, etc.

Trump was objectively less authoritarian than both Bush and Obama. I didn't care for his brash, ego-centric personality, but I benefitted from his actions. Which is more important, a leader that doesn't "Tweet mean things", or one does good things? Competency helps also. Biden is basically a puppet at this point, and his handlers are both evil and incompetent.

[Lord Dominator]

Where does Trump stand on your fascism ranking? Or do you think he's one of the best ever presidents?

Just because someone is a "big meanie", that's not fascism. Was he perfect? No! However, his policies allowed us to be more free. Reduced taxes, drastically reduced regulations, didn't start any new wars, made progress on pulling the military back from the forward position in other nations, pressured those nations to pay more for their own defense, and let the states handle the lockdowns, mandates, etc.

Trump was objectively less authoritarian than both Bush and Obama. I didn't care for his brash, ego-centric personality, but I benefitted from his actions. Which is more important, a leader that doesn't "Tweet mean things", or one does good things? Competency helps also. Biden is basically a puppet at this point, and his handlers are both evil and incompetent.

So you have no issues with his extremely expansive claims of executive authority, active and continuing attempts to undermine democracy, hatred of media that isn’t entirely fawning of him (and attempts to undermine that), willingness to deploy the military in the domestic homeland, or any of the other things he did that served to undermine some aspect of a free society ruled by constitutional order?

[Merrill]

Then everyone should pay the same percentage. No one should be exempt. If everyone benefits, everyone should have skin in the game.

Random billionaire pays the same tax rate on the first 9700 that I do, and the same rate on the amount between 9701 & 39475 as I do - and they pay the same rate on all their income over the first 510301 as everyone else who makes that much does. Everyone is paying the same %, it’s just that portions of income are taxed at different rates (and not as many people have the upper rates).

No, everyone is not paying the same %. There are an absurd amount of deductions and credits. Tax policy should be simple, difficult to evade, and have one purpose: to raise revenue. Taxes should not be used to influence peoples' behavior. Government shouldn't be "nudging" certain choices, but if it's going to happen, the right way is to pass a law. Both Democrats and Republicans use the tax code to their ends. The earned income tax credit, the child tax credit, the mortgage deduction, and the charitable deductions are all equally wrong.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Oh right. Just sock your TFR into nothing by not providing incentives for rearing children. See how well that goes for Japan.

[Merrill]

Random billionaire pays the same tax rate on the first 9700 that I do, and the same rate on the amount between 9701 & 39475 as I do - and they pay the same rate on all their income over the first 510301 as everyone else who makes that much does. Everyone is paying the same %, it’s just that portions of income are taxed at different rates (and not as many people have the upper rates).

Marginal tax rates for the wealthy have been as high as 92% (under the Eisenhower administration). Those rates at 70% or above are not outliers, they have been done before. What are the outliers are the current marginal tax rates on the wealthy, started by Reagan's administration reducing that.

Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Marginal tax rates for the wealthy have been as high as 92% (under the Eisenhower administration). Those rates at 70% or above are not outliers, they have been done before. What are the outliers are the current marginal tax rates on the wealthy, started by Reagan's administration reducing that.

Doesn't matter what has been accepted as normal. What matters is what is just. It is wrong to have someone pay a higher rate, because of their success. Besides the immorality of it, it's foolish policy. When you punish achievement, you get less of it.

Should the 18th Duke of Norfolk pay more in taxes? If yes then why is the American equivalent exempt despite doing fuck all to earn his wealth?