American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Kowani]

jesus christ, people

what this does is maintain keep the two bills linked together
either they both pass or neither does
everyone knew this going in
it was an explicit condition of the affair from the progressive caucus, nancy pelosi, and joe biden
then what happened was a very small fraction of the moderates (again, maybe 9 people!) tried to sabotage and sink the entire thing
moves like these-specifically on the timing of the bills-help keep everyone on board and the party from going down in flames as it sabotages itself
the reconciliation bill isn't even what the progressives wanted
it's literally just things biden was talking about on the campaign trail
the only reason its a separate bill at all (because remember, the two bills were originally one!) was because the moderates demanded that they be separate pieces of legislation so the social spending would be easier to kill
saying "the progressives want to sink biden's agenda" makes absolutely no sense when the overwhelming majority of what could be called "the biden agenda" is in the reconciliation bill

You're going to have a real hard time selling me on this when the GOP retakes Congress and then they run Trump again.

My perspective is this: do not let perfect be the enemy of good. If you want to use the bipartisan bill as leverage in the short run, okay I'm fine with that. If that strategy fails to convince the moderates, I would like the Democrats to at least do something.

The progressive caucus is much less likely to see consequences for this blowing up, so I guess it's easy for them to do this kind of shit. Meanwhile, my Congressman will probably be among those that get swept out of office.

there are two schools of thought on congress

the first is that the midterms are unwinnable anyway-literally every indicator right now is pointing to a loss (the structural reforms necessary to avoid that were not taken)
if this is the case, then the democrats should go as big as possible because they're not going to be able to do anything at all

the second is that the midterms are only winnable if the dems do popular-and salient things
if this is the case, then passing reconciliation should be everyone's priority because it is where those things are

even in the electoralism only scenario there is just no case in which a low-salience infrastructure deal saves the democratic party
and in the eyes of the progressives, the infrastructure bill is not a "something better than nothing"
because all the climate and equity provisions were packed into the reconciliation bill to get GOP votes on the BIF, passing it alone is a net negative for humanity

[Corrian]

This was explained better above by Kowani.

The moderates don't get to have all the say anymore. Again, they're the ones crashing the Biden agenda, not the progressives. The progressives are more in support of Biden than moderates at this point.

The 3.5 trillion WAS the fucking compromise in the first place. Any moderate trying to go even lower are the ones in the fucking way, and they need to get the fuck out of the way. I'm done cratering to a bunch of fucking moderates trying to destroy overwhelmingly popular legislation because they're god damn idiots.

The $6 trillion was not going to happen in any case. It was not serious proposal, given the reality of the political situation that we're currently in.

These internal blame games will not be convincing to voters in competitive districts.

Voting down overwhelmingly popular legislation will also not be convincing to voters in competitive districts, either.

[Outer Sparta]

And voting down the bipartisan bill that passed the senate achieves that?

This was explained better above by Kowani.

The moderates don't get to have all the say anymore. Again, they're the ones crashing the Biden agenda, not the progressives. The progressives are more in support of Biden than moderates at this point.

The 3.5 trillion WAS the fucking compromise in the first place. Any moderate trying to go even lower are the ones in the fucking way, and they need to get the fuck out of the way. I'm done cratering to a bunch of fucking moderates trying to destroy overwhelmingly popular legislation because they're god damn idiots.

And then you got the likes of Manchin and Sinema who try to play the "moderate bipartisan" card to distract from the fact they have lots of corporate ties and that they are basically swayed the most (Manchin with fossil fuels even though coal in WV is dying and wind power has much more potential to boost the state, Sinema with pharmaceuticals). Not saying that other Dems aren't influenced by lobbying, but those two certainly are the most.

[Corrian]

This was explained better above by Kowani.

The moderates don't get to have all the say anymore. Again, they're the ones crashing the Biden agenda, not the progressives. The progressives are more in support of Biden than moderates at this point.

The 3.5 trillion WAS the fucking compromise in the first place. Any moderate trying to go even lower are the ones in the fucking way, and they need to get the fuck out of the way. I'm done cratering to a bunch of fucking moderates trying to destroy overwhelmingly popular legislation because they're god damn idiots.

And then you got the likes of Manchin and Sinema who try to play the "moderate bipartisan" card to distract from the fact they have lots of corporate ties and that they are basically swayed the most (Manchin with fossil fuels even though coal in WV is dying and wind power has much more potential to boost the state, Sinema with pharmaceuticals). Not saying that other Dems aren't influenced by lobbying, but those two certainly are the most.

Sinema is the biggest disappointment in politics. She has no excuse for being the piece of shit she is.

[Outer Sparta]

And then you got the likes of Manchin and Sinema who try to play the "moderate bipartisan" card to distract from the fact they have lots of corporate ties and that they are basically swayed the most (Manchin with fossil fuels even though coal in WV is dying and wind power has much more potential to boost the state, Sinema with pharmaceuticals). Not saying that other Dems aren't influenced by lobbying, but those two certainly are the most.

Sinema is the biggest disappointment in politics. She has no excuse for being the piece of shit she is.

Especially since Arizona is nowhere near West Virginia in terms of partisan lean. Arizona is a toss-up/tilt blue state, which means you can still go bold with the party line and not try to take the most conservative positions.

[Saiwania]

If the Democrats don't manage to implement any of Biden's agenda during this session of Congress, they will be absolutely slaughtered in the midterms. They will be kicking themselves for that, because after that nothing is going to get done in Congress. It will be solely up to Biden and his executive orders.

If the Democrats lose, it'll be because of inflation and how Biden handled the Afghanistan withdrawal and the US' foreign policy. There was tons of trouble that had nothing to do with any legislation. Who promised it anyways? Do people really want the government to deficit spend on programs/stuff we won't be able to raise the money for later on?

[Corrian]

Sinema is the biggest disappointment in politics. She has no excuse for being the piece of shit she is.

Especially since Arizona is nowhere near West Virginia in terms of partisan lean. Arizona is a toss-up/tilt blue state, which means you can still go bold with the party line and not try to take the most conservative positions.

I mean, Mark Kelly is the way better Senator at this point. Sinema had the prospects of a really cool Senator but decided to squander it all.

[Outer Sparta]

Especially since Arizona is nowhere near West Virginia in terms of partisan lean. Arizona is a toss-up/tilt blue state, which means you can still go bold with the party line and not try to take the most conservative positions.

I mean, Mark Kelly is the way better Senator at this point. Sinema had the prospects of a really cool Senator but decided to squander it all.

If Sinema were more like Mark Kelly in terms of voting and policies, then she wouldn't be such a problem.

[Antipatros]

Especially since Arizona is nowhere near West Virginia in terms of partisan lean. Arizona is a toss-up/tilt blue state, which means you can still go bold with the party line and not try to take the most conservative positions.

I mean, Mark Kelly is the way better Senator at this point. Sinema had the prospects of a really cool Senator but decided to squander it all.

True, but it's not like it would matter. Manchin would have the final say in any case.

[Corrian]

I mean, Mark Kelly is the way better Senator at this point. Sinema had the prospects of a really cool Senator but decided to squander it all.

True, but it's not like it would matter. Manchin would have the final say in any case.

Which is frustrating in its own right, but at least I can KINDA get where he's stuck at, being in West Virginia. Even though the policies in the reconciliation would overwhelmingly help his own state.

[Forensic Reality]

Progressives need to stop with the mindset of my way or the highway. Giving up would mean Biden’s entire domestic agenda fails.

Authoritarian socialists have always been uncompromising in whatever form they take.
American Progressives while not yet as overtly violent as their contemporaries still suffer from a tenacity that drives them to feed on themselves so only the biggest meanest sharks rise up out of the frenzy.

Meanwhile, other progressive policies past and present are still savaging the American middle class into rapid declination.
The Biden presidency will still succeed in pushing the US dollar out of global reserve status and the country into at least second world status if not by the end of the next term then shortly thereafter.
No need to fret.

[Galloism]

because all the climate and equity provisions were packed into the reconciliation bill to get GOP votes on the BIF, passing it alone is a net negative for humanity

So you're saying this is what will happen.

[Outer Sparta]

True, but it's not like it would matter. Manchin would have the final say in any case.

Which is frustrating in its own right, but at least I can KINDA get where he's stuck at, being in West Virginia. Even though the policies in the reconciliation would overwhelmingly help his own state.

Manchin doesn't care what his constituents think, he only cares about his constituents of lobbyists. Why else would he support the dying coal industry in West Virginia and go against clean energy even though clean energy is better for his constituents (the people of WV) than what they have right now?

[Corrian]

Progressives need to stop with the mindset of my way or the highway. Giving up would mean Biden’s entire domestic agenda fails.

Authoritarian socialists have always been uncompromising in whatever form they take.
American Progressives while not yet as overtly violent as their contemporaries still suffer from a tenacity that drives them to feed on themselves so only the biggest meanest sharks rise up out of the frenzy.

Meanwhile, other progressive policies past and present are still savaging the American middle class into rapid declination.
The Biden presidency will still succeed in pushing the US dollar out of global reserve status and the country into at least second world status if not by the end of the next term then shortly thereafter.
No need to fret.

What a bunch of rubbish.

[Saiwania]

Manchin doesn't care what his constituents think, he only cares about his constituents of lobbyists. Why else would he support the dying coal industry in West Virginia and go against clean energy even though clean energy is better for his constituents (the people of WV) than what they have right now?

If the green energy companies are just as profitable as traditional energy if not more, then they should begin playing the lobbying game as well. They should be willing to spend more than the oil company does if they want to expect to be listened to and be given more or first priority.

[Corrian]

Manchin doesn't care what his constituents think, he only cares about his constituents of lobbyists. Why else would he support the dying coal industry in West Virginia and go against clean energy even though clean energy is better for his constituents (the people of WV) than what they have right now?

If the green energy companies are just as profitable as traditional energy if not more, then they should begin playing the lobbying game as well. They should be willing to spend more than the oil company does if they want to expect to be listened to and be given more or first priority.

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

[Lady Victory]

Progressives need to stop with the mindset of my way or the highway. Giving up would mean Biden’s entire domestic agenda fails.

Authoritarian socialists have always been uncompromising in whatever form they take.
American Progressives while not yet as overtly violent as their contemporaries still suffer from a tenacity that drives them to feed on themselves so only the biggest meanest sharks rise up out of the frenzy.

Meanwhile, other progressive policies past and present are still savaging the American middle class into rapid declination.
The Biden presidency will still succeed in pushing the US dollar out of global reserve status and the country into at least second world status if not by the end of the next term then shortly thereafter.
No need to fret.

lol

[Saiwania]

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

It doesn't even seem all that expensive to do if you're beyond the small business phase. This recent fossil fuel contribution was only around $90,000. Pocket change to rich types. If a green company spends $120,000+ instead, the oil company is going to be ignored unless they intend to try to win a bidding war.

[Ifreann]

If the green energy companies are just as profitable as traditional energy if not more, then they should begin playing the lobbying game as well. They should be willing to spend more than the oil company does if they want to expect to be listened to and be given more or first priority.

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

Yeah, green energy companies they should just use the huge amounts of wealth they've accrued over the centuries to bribe the government into letting them operate.

[Kowani]

If the Democrats don't manage to implement any of Biden's agenda during this session of Congress, they will be absolutely slaughtered in the midterms. They will be kicking themselves for that, because after that nothing is going to get done in Congress. It will be solely up to Biden and his executive orders.

If the Democrats lose, it'll be because of inflation and how Biden handled the Afghanistan withdrawal and the US' foreign policy. There was tons of trouble that had nothing to do with any legislation. Who promised it anyways? Do people really want the government to deficit spend on programs/stuff we won't be able to raise the money for later on?

this is, for the record, not how money works

but also, yes, these programs were mostly promised during the campaign trail and remain overwhelmingly popular
88% support for drug price negotiation, 90% support for Medicare expansion to include vision/hearing/dental, 66% for lowering the Medicare enrollment age
63% for free community college
The paid family leave proposals are extremely popular even among the GOP
65% for the Civilian Climate Corps

like there are things here you could probably attack if you tried but the vast majority of the bill (the parts we have polling for) are very popular

[Kowani]

because all the climate and equity provisions were packed into the reconciliation bill to get GOP votes on the BIF, passing it alone is a net negative for humanity

So you're saying this is what will happen.

i'm saying that is what progressives (who have the leverage!) are trying to not let happen

[Lady Victory]

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

Yeah, green energy companies they should just use the huge amounts of wealth they've accrued over the centuries to bribe the government into letting them operate.

I mean it'd be kinda funny and poetic if the fossil fuel lobby who've been trying to keep our country perpetually stuck in the 70s suddenly got upstaged by a green energy lobby. I mean sure, yeah, lobbying is bad but fuck it would be hilarious to see the coal and oil industries beaten at their own game.

[Corrian]

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

Yeah, green energy companies they should just use the huge amounts of wealth they've accrued over the centuries to bribe the government into letting them operate.

Yeah I didn't say it was as easy.

[Antipatros]

If the Democrats lose, it'll be because of inflation and how Biden handled the Afghanistan withdrawal and the US' foreign policy. There was tons of trouble that had nothing to do with any legislation. Who promised it anyways? Do people really want the government to deficit spend on programs/stuff we won't be able to raise the money for later on?

this is, for the record, not how money works

but also, yes, these programs were mostly promised during the campaign trail and remain overwhelmingly popular
88% support for drug price negotiation, 90% support for Medicare expansion to include vision/hearing/dental, 66% for lowering the Medicare enrollment age
63% for free community college
The paid family leave proposals are extremely popular even among the GOP
65% for the Civilian Climate Corps

like there are things here you could probably attack if you tried but the vast majority of the bill (the parts we have polling for) are very popular

Unfortunately, the popularity of different measures is not the main determinant of how American politics works or what the government does.

If history is a guide, all the GOP has to do is pick apart the reconciliation bill and find 1-2 unpopular provisions, then just campaign on that.

[Page]

If the green energy companies are just as profitable as traditional energy if not more, then they should begin playing the lobbying game as well. They should be willing to spend more than the oil company does if they want to expect to be listened to and be given more or first priority.

Lobbying should be banned altogether but...I kinda agree with this point. They need to start lobbying too.

A lobbying ban sounds great in theory because one's mind always goes to evil oil execs and the like but there are times when lobbying isn't only justified but even life-saving.

In 2016 the DEA wanted to ban kratom and in doing so would have killed thousands and ruined hundreds of thousands of lives. Parents with fibromyalgia who could finally play with their kids at the park, recovering addicts who stayed clean from opioids for years thanks to this wonderful plant, all the pain patients left suffering due to the overcorrection of the opioid crisis that even left some terminal cancer sufferers without adequate pain meds, and people like me, thanks to this plant my depression has been manageable for the last six years, I no longer engage in self-destructive behavior, without it I might be abusing hard drugs or wind up in a psych ward.

Stopping that ban wouldn't have been possible without lobbying.