American Politics VII: Virginia Reel

[Punished UMN]

something something barbarous orientals amirite, it’s okay to default to wars of extermination bc they don’t rlly count as ppl

Nope! Excellent stretch, though, you really reached fucking hard to find racism here lmfao. It's mostly that the PRC - that is to say, the government, since I apparently need to spell this shit out - are definitely not the understanding type. Most countries wouldn't be pleased if an Old Person Moment lead to some of their cities getting glassed. The PRC would prefer a global nuclear holocaust to another fifteen minutes of humiliation

Not sure what you mean here, if any nuclear power nuked another, the result would be a full scale exchange, that's the whole point of second strike capability as a deterrence.

[Antipatros]

I was half expecting a "frankly, we did win this election" sort of speech from Elder. Thankfully he didn't do that. Maybe he's not as big of a piece of shit as Trump is.

We'll have to see what he does in the coming days.

[The Lone Alliance]

I was half expecting a "frankly, we did win this election" sort of speech from Elder. Thankfully he didn't do that. Maybe he's not as big of a piece of shit as Trump is.

We'll have to see what he does in the coming days.

The Republicans likely realized that winning in California would hurt them hard in the midterms because the sheer terror of California going Red even temporarily would be enough to let the Democrats sweep the Midterms, so they're they're telling Elder to sit down and shut up and accept the L.

[Immortan Khan]

Hope my boy MeetKevin doesn't give up and tries for some other office at some point.

[Immortan Khan]

It’s rather fascinating how you guys are “OMG we had a coup!” rather then seeing why the General felt he needed to do it?

I actually don't care in the long run. I'm just running on the assumption that most people ITT prefer America to be a democratically elected republic with civilian control over the military.

Could it be the CandC is not really stable?

There are legal ways to remove an unfit POTUS.

Like it or not the General acted in what he thought was the best interests of the Nation.

So do a lot of coup leaders.

Ask yourself his; has he cut off Biden or is the same thing in place? If it’s no? Sorry; not a coup.

That's not what determines a coup lmfao. Do you even know the bar for when a coup is considered successful? It's about a week being in control.

[Bombadil]

Most of the vote left is in Newsom-friendly area...Not only is he going to not be recalled, he's going to not be recalled by a HUGE margin.

I know it’s California but will this make Republicans realise that Trumpist candidates are a sure fire means of losing elections because people are more motivated to vote against that shit rather than a minority who will, except that minority is a majority of Republican supporters.

As I understand it Newsom turned this around by going ‘this guy’s just like Trump’.

.. they sure are in a pickle.

[The Black Forrest]

It’s rather fascinating how you guys are “OMG we had a coup!” rather then seeing why the General felt he needed to do it?

I actually don't care in the long run. I'm just running on the assumption that most people ITT prefer America to be a democratically elected republic with civilian control over the military.

Could it be the CandC is not really stable?

There are legal ways to remove an unfit POTUS.

Like it or not the General acted in what he thought was the best interests of the Nation.

So do a lot of coup leaders.

Ask yourself his; has he cut off Biden or is the same thing in place? If it’s no? Sorry; not a coup.

That's not what determines a coup lmfao. Do you even know the bar for when a coup is considered successful? It's about a week being in control.

*shrugs* don’t know what to tell you dude. Not a coup. But hey if it makes you happy to be outraged? Go for it.

[Punished UMN]

I actually don't care in the long run. I'm just running on the assumption that most people ITT prefer America to be a democratically elected republic with civilian control over the military. There are legal ways to remove an unfit POTUS.

So do a lot of coup leaders.
That's not what determines a coup lmfao. Do you even know the bar for when a coup is considered successful? It's about a week being in control.

*shrugs* don’t know what to tell you dude. Not a coup. But hey if it makes you happy to be outraged? Go for it.

Should the military be able to unilaterally decide defense policy without the consent of the civilian government, and should the military not be subject to civilian control by the elected government, Y/N?

[Immortan Khan]

I actually don't care in the long run. I'm just running on the assumption that most people ITT prefer America to be a democratically elected republic with civilian control over the military. There are legal ways to remove an unfit POTUS.

So do a lot of coup leaders.
That's not what determines a coup lmfao. Do you even know the bar for when a coup is considered successful? It's about a week being in control.

*shrugs* don’t know what to tell you dude. Not a coup. But hey if it makes you happy to be outraged? Go for it.

If this happened in any other Western country, you'd be calling it a soft semi-coup. I get it, Americans still want to hold onto the belief that It Can't Happen Here but denial doesn't erase what is obvious to a lot of people, especially to non-Americans (like yours truly).

[Immortan Khan]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.

Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

[Antipatros]

Most of the vote left is in Newsom-friendly area...Not only is he going to not be recalled, he's going to not be recalled by a HUGE margin.

I know it’s California but will this make Republicans realise that Trumpist candidates are a sure fire means of losing elections because people are more motivated to vote against that shit rather than a minority who will, except that minority is a majority of Republican supporters.

As I understand it Newsom turned this around by going ‘this guy’s just like Trump’.

.. they sure are in a pickle.

I don't think that the GOP possess that degree of self awareness. They will continue to double and triple down on Trumpism. If this causes them to lose elections, they will become enraged and slide into increasingly authoritarian patterns of thinking.

[Bombadil]

*shrugs* don’t know what to tell you dude. Not a coup. But hey if it makes you happy to be outraged? Go for it.

Should the military be able to unilaterally decide defense policy without the consent of the civilian government, and should the military not be subject to civilian control by the elected government, Y/N?

While an unhinged President is frantically trying to overturn an election, spreading baseless lies and whipping up support to incite an attack on the very Capitol itself, I think it’s ok for a military leader to ring his counterpart and say ‘chill, it looks bad but we’re not going to be launching nuclear attacks or anything’

That’s all he did, he didn’t disobey, he didn’t overthrow the president, he called someone and calmed a situation.

He said ‘democracy can be sloppy sometimes but it’s not going to turn into some flash war’.

[Corrian]

Most of the vote left is in Newsom-friendly area...Not only is he going to not be recalled, he's going to not be recalled by a HUGE margin.

I know it’s California but will this make Republicans realise that Trumpist candidates are a sure fire means of losing elections because people are more motivated to vote against that shit rather than a minority who will, except that minority is a majority of Republican supporters.

As I understand it Newsom turned this around by going ‘this guy’s just like Trump’.

.. they sure are in a pickle.

Like...At the moment the gap between the candidates is even LARGER than Newsom's election to governor in 2018? A Democratic midterm? How do you fuck it up THAT bad?

[Bombadil]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.

Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

Or.. or.. he meant ‘don’t do shit without giving us the opportunity to convince the president this is a monumental fucking mistake and he really really shouldn’t do it’.

[Immortan Khan]

he didn’t overthrow the president

If he no longer has de facto control over the military, especially its most destructive assets, and further has officials conducting private foreign relations that could undermine his own stance, then yes he was effectively overthrown even if the pageantry wasn't there. Which is the point of a soft coup, to quietly neutralize political power extrajudicially without the fanfare that comes with a standard coup.

[Antipatros]

*shrugs* don’t know what to tell you dude. Not a coup. But hey if it makes you happy to be outraged? Go for it.

Should the military be able to unilaterally decide defense policy without the consent of the civilian government, and should the military not be subject to civilian control by the elected government, Y/N?

In my view, the President should not have the ability to unilaterally authorize a nuclear first strike.

Congress has gradually allowed the executive to claim more and more authority in the area of foreign policy and national security. They should reclaim some of that authority, because Presidents can evidently be quite emotionally/mentally unstable.

[Kanadorika]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.

Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

Merely "following orders" didn't fly in 1945, and it wouldn't fly in 2021. The military still has a responsibility to behave ethically, even if it means disobeying orders sent from above to attack. Milley is in the right. A man of his rank is not just a robot following every order barked by the president. He still has a moral duty to ensure those orders are just, and if necessary, disobey.

[Punished UMN]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

Merely "following orders" didn't fly in 1945, and it wouldn't fly in 2021. The military still has a responsibility to behave ethically, even if it means disobeying orders sent from above to attack. Milley is in the right. A man of his rank is not just a robot following every order barked by the president. He still has a moral duty to ensure those orders are just, and if necessary, disobey.

Military officers are routinely punished for disobeying orders they believed to be unethical. The point of the military is for those above to command and those below to obey. The Nuremberg defense is indeed not a legal defense for war crimes, that doesn't change that disobeying orders is a felony.

[Antipatros]

Should the military be able to unilaterally decide defense policy without the consent of the civilian government, and should the military not be subject to civilian control by the elected government, Y/N?

In my view, the President should not have the ability to unilaterally authorize a nuclear first strike.

Congress has gradually allowed the executive to claim more and more authority in the area of foreign policy and national security. They should reclaim some of that authority, because Presidents can evidently be quite emotionally/mentally unstable.

And I'll follow up by saying that the benefits of allowing the President to authorize nuclear first strikes are far outweighed by the risks.

Now, if someone else has launched a strike against us, that is a little different. The procedures in that case should be a little more permissive.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.

Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

That's how it works tho. Orders to launch nukes pass from the President down through the Chief of Staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That's just him reinforcing how it legally works, not usurping power.

[Bombadil]

Of course a majority of people outraged by this manufactured issue were perfectly fine with violently overthrowing democratic elections a few months ago..

..he didn’t actually disobey orders anyway, it could be interpreted that he potentially might although one could just as easily interpret it as calming a situation and asking reports to keep him informed of a situation.

Amazing how quick the right leap on a military they profess to adore

[Washington Resistance Army]

The copium from some in this thread is unreal. I know it's hard to accept that you're living in a borderline failed state at this point but that's just the reality of things nowadays. We're not the shining city on the hill that leads the world in almost every field anymore, we're the collapsing downtrodden slum where the masses are continuing to get poorer while our political institutions implode and collapse to the point of uselessness.

[Vassenor]

It's also worth noting that Milley didn't simply strengthen procedure, he flat out told the other officers to ignore any orders from above unless he signed off on them.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

That's how it works tho. Orders to launch nukes pass from the President down through the Chief of Staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That's just him reinforcing how it legally works, not usurping power.

Except they can't stop the order, only confirm that it came from the President.

[Antipatros]

The copium from some in this thread is unreal. I know it's hard to accept that you're living in a borderline failed state at this point but that's just the reality of things nowadays. We're not the shining city on the hill that leads the world in almost every field anymore, we're the collapsing downtrodden slum where the masses are continuing to get poorer while our political institutions implode and collapse to the point of uselessness.

I think about this a lot, and it makes me pretty sad. I don't see any good solutions, either.

Call me an irrational doomer if you wish.

[Kanadorika]

Merely "following orders" didn't fly in 1945, and it wouldn't fly in 2021. The military still has a responsibility to behave ethically, even if it means disobeying orders sent from above to attack. Milley is in the right. A man of his rank is not just a robot following every order barked by the president. He still has a moral duty to ensure those orders are just, and if necessary, disobey.

Military officers are routinely punished for disobeying orders they believed to be unethical. The point of the military is for those above to command and those below to obey. The Nuremberg defense is indeed not a legal defense for war crimes, that doesn't change that disobeying orders is a felony.

The point of the military isn't to mindlessly obey orders. It's to protect the constitution and people of the United States. There is a duty to follow through with this, even if it means disobeying an order from the president.

Otherwise the president could simply have the army march through congress and seize power and nobody from within could dare question it.