NATION

PASSWORD

Punisher Task Force vs Organised Crime in New York City

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

How successful would the Punisher Task Force be?

1. Punisher Task Force would prevail (every single member of NYC organised crime member would either be dead or leave NYC)
7
24%
2. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, however, much more than half of the people on the list would be eliminated before they manage it
6
21%
3. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, however, roughly half of the people on the list would be eliminated before they manage it
0
No votes
4. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, only less than half of the people on the list would be eliminated
16
55%
 
Total votes : 29

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Punisher Task Force vs Organised Crime in New York City

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:28 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

A team of 5 elite US special forces operators (with lots of field op experience) form a death squad ("Punisher Task Force") and show up in New York City. Their objective is to kill off every single member of organised crime in New York City (they have a large and comprehensive hit list). All 5 operators are 100% committed to this objective and are fanatical in that they will do anything and everything to accomplish the mission (including offing civilians if necessary).

Meanwhile, all members on that list have received a warning that a "Punisher Task Force" is coming for them (and at first, it is probable that many members will take it as a prank warning).

The Punisher Task Force has the following additional advantages which they are aware of:
1. Law enforcement will stand down and not intervene with the activities of the Punisher Task Force. If the police are nearby, called or summoned in a situation where the Punisher Task Force is in action, they will magically ignore the situation and walk away.
2. The Punisher Task Force have a free 500,000 USD in cash which they can use to buy weapons legal and illegal (completely untraceable). If they need more money than that it will have to come out of pocket or they will have to steal the money.
3. They have functional fake IDs to use for this mission.

They operate with the following limitations:
1. They cannot leave New York City until and unless all targets have been eliminated or have left New York City.
2. While it is acceptable to have some civilian collateral casualties (innocents killed), if this number exceeds 100 they fail the mission (and they do not want to fail the mission). The task force members are aware of how many civilians die at all times.

...

Now presumably, it will not be possible for the Punisher Task Force to simply get all of NYC's organised crime in a single place and just off them with a single trap. What will likely happen, is that they take out some of the big players (or maybe they will start with lower level thugs) but at some point, some elements of organised crime will realise:

"Hey this warning thing, it's a serious deal and something's off because the police don't care."

At which point NYC's crime groups might work together to try and eliminate the Punisher Task Force (before they themselves get wiped off).

Now this is where it gets more interesting. Each side will then try to mind game the other while switching tactics around until one side is left standing. Who will win? Remember, nothing in the rules prevent the crime groups from hiring professional killers from other cities and places or bringing in additional gang members.

The win condition of the Punisher Task Force is the complete elimination (or departure) or every single person on the original list (all organised crime members in NYC). NYC's crime groups would presumably want to bait and eliminate the Punisher Task Force but their success may depend on WHEN they start to take this threat seriously, when (and if) they can work together, and whether or not they can adapt to whatever the tactics of special forces operations assassination that the Task Force will use.

Which side do you think would prevail? Please provide a justification.

Options:
1. Punisher Task Force would prevail (every single member of NYC organised crime member would either be dead or leave NYC)
2. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, however, much more than half of the people on the list would be eliminated before they manage it
3. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, however, roughly half of the people on the list would be eliminated before they manage it
4. Organised Crime would take out the Task Force, only less than half of the people on the list would be eliminated



I'm going to go with option 2. The Punisher Task Force would play it smart and at first they would make some of the deaths look like accidents. At some point, they will escalate and overreach (taking opportunities) and kill off some of the big players at the big meetings. At this point the crime groups would try to work together but they will fail because the special forces operators would be too good in evasion, counter-attacking, and mind-gaming. In any kind of firefight situations, the criminals (who are mainly used to using guns to INTIMIDATE as opposed to fighting people who shoot back) would be at a disadvantage. They will then take further losses. However, this is where they smarten up and start bringing in killers from other places (ex the cartels, the Yakuza, the Mexican mob). The Punisher Task Force will continue to fight and pick off tons of members. But eventually they will be baited into a trap where a final gunfight will go down (or a few bombs will be set off). At this point, the Punisher Task Force will fall but not before every member fights with determination and valour to the very end.

User avatar
New Kowloon Bay
Diplomat
 
Posts: 634
Founded: Jun 01, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby New Kowloon Bay » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:30 am

I mean, like 10% would not take the task force seriously and get killed, and like 60% would be killed because 5 well trained soldiers should be able to defeat 100 untrained henchmen.
Yeah I don't know when I'm set in.
yet another uh.....
NKB News:


More information here.

GSA always will be missed

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:33 am

New Kowloon Bay wrote:I mean, like 10% would not take the task force seriously and get killed, and like 60% would be killed because 5 well trained soldiers should be able to defeat 100 untrained henchmen.


How many organised crime members (suspected or known) are there New York City anyways? Anyone have a number?

User avatar
Cannot think of a name
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41705
Founded: Antiquity
New York Times Democracy

Postby Cannot think of a name » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:55 am

Even Marvel doesn't think Punisher is a good idea and he's their character.

And good lord, it's okay to kill 99 randos in your hunt for one mafia member? And this clock resets for each mission? The cure is worse than the disease (sort of the point of most of the Punisher comics if you'd read them...)

Never mind that you somehow managed to sleep through all of 2020, but the idea of police doing extra-judicial killings has not been the most popular thing in the world, primarily because the country retains a lot of its racial animosity and it disproportionately affects the black population. Even with the so-called safe guards we have, regular ass police serving a warrant managed to gun down an ER technician in her sleep. It was not okay. In what world do you think mowing down 99 innocent people is going to be a thing anyone is okay with?

And that's not even getting to the fact that extra-judicial killings are not a thing a developed country does. You know how people talk about Obama's drone strikes? It's not because they're part of the pilots union and think that bombs should only come from aircraft with people in them. It's because he used one to kill an American citizen in a war zone. Iffy at best in a war zone (I'd argue still not okay) but on American soil? Fuuuuuuuuck no.

Oh, and they're out there committing crimes (buying untracable guns...I mean, why if they've been given a license to kill) and stealing to support their gun habit. Jesus christ.

This is a gobsmackingly stupid idea that has nothing to do with effectiveness and everything to do with a fantasy life of shooting down bad guys and still being a 'good guy'.

Try to learn the difference between action movies and real life. For fuck's sake.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:59 am

They would probably be able to leave after 5 days. As a New Yorker, the mob isn't shit anymore. Maybe if this was in the 90s it could drag on a while, but there would be nothing for them to do today.

On the other hand, this would never be finished because nearly every one of the 5 families has multiple mob bosses, interim or otherwise, incarcerated outside of NYC at the moment.
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
New Kowloon Bay wrote:I mean, like 10% would not take the task force seriously and get killed, and like 60% would be killed because 5 well trained soldiers should be able to defeat 100 untrained henchmen.


How many organised crime members (suspected or known) are there New York City anyways? Anyone have a number?

Since the entire thing's illegal, there isn't any number, obviously. Though nowadays the mob is weak as hell, so not many. Maybe 500, tops, and that's including associates (members of the mafia who have not been "made" yet).
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:08 am

Batman would obviously stop them all.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:48 am

South Americanastan wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
How many organised crime members (suspected or known) are there New York City anyways? Anyone have a number?

Since the entire thing's illegal, there isn't any number, obviously. Though nowadays the mob is weak as hell, so not many. Maybe 500, tops, and that's including associates (members of the mafia who have not been "made" yet).


So few?

And how many goons with guns can they put out there?

I understand most mob members just move goods and/or run the white collar-side/shop side of the thing. Let's say there was an emergency and the mob needed to deploy some kind of army to fight this Punisher Task Force, how many troops could they mobilise?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:49 am

Ifreann wrote:Batman would obviously stop them all.


I thought he was a New Jersey vigilante. This is NYC. Also, it's intended to take place in this universe (except for the limited supernatural impositions).
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:52 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Since the entire thing's illegal, there isn't any number, obviously. Though nowadays the mob is weak as hell, so not many. Maybe 500, tops, and that's including associates (members of the mafia who have not been "made" yet).


So few?

And how many goons with guns can they put out there?

I understand most mob members just move goods and/or run the white collar-side/shop side of the thing. Let's say there was an emergency and the mob needed to deploy some kind of army to fight this Punisher Task Force, how many troops could they mobilise?

Maybe 300, and that's if they can convince the associates (who are not bound to work for the mob) to take up arms too.
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:52 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Batman would obviously stop them all.


I thought he was a New Jersey vigilante. This is NYC. Also, it's intended to take place in this universe (except for the limited supernatural impositions).

Batman goes where he wants.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:53 am

South Americanastan wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
So few?

And how many goons with guns can they put out there?

I understand most mob members just move goods and/or run the white collar-side/shop side of the thing. Let's say there was an emergency and the mob needed to deploy some kind of army to fight this Punisher Task Force, how many troops could they mobilise?

Maybe 300, and that's if they can convince the associates (who are not bound to work for the mob) to take up arms too.


Okay but they at least, still have a few millions/billions USD worth of dark money which they can use to bring in killers from other cities and places right?

Could they pull a Mafia Queen style (5 million to whoever kills them) move?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:57 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Maybe 300, and that's if they can convince the associates (who are not bound to work for the mob) to take up arms too.


Okay but they at least, still have a few millions/billions USD worth of dark money which they can use to bring in killers from other cities and places right?

Could they pull a Mafia Queen style (5 million to whoever kills them) move?

Ehhh... billions is generous. Any "X Amount of cash for kill" offer would be snuffed out quickly, as it would be impossible to make an open offer without someone finding out. Maybe they could bring in a few hitmen, but hitmen are hard to come by, and aren't as combat proficient as the movies show them to be. Most hitmen are only effective when the target doesn't know they are being hunted.
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:59 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Batman would obviously stop them all.


I thought he was a New Jersey vigilante. This is NYC. Also, it's intended to take place in this universe (except for the limited supernatural impositions).

On second thought, the murder soldiers would just get covid and wind up on ventilators. Either Batman or covid, for sure.


Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Maybe 300, and that's if they can convince the associates (who are not bound to work for the mob) to take up arms too.


Okay but they at least, still have a few millions/billions USD worth of dark money which they can use to bring in killers from other cities and places right?

Could they pull a Mafia Queen style (5 million to whoever kills them) move?

"dark money"
It's called cash.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:05 am

South Americanastan wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Okay but they at least, still have a few millions/billions USD worth of dark money which they can use to bring in killers from other cities and places right?

Could they pull a Mafia Queen style (5 million to whoever kills them) move?

Ehhh... billions is generous. Any "X Amount of cash for kill" offer would be snuffed out quickly, as it would be impossible to make an open offer without someone finding out. Maybe they could bring in a few hitmen, but hitmen are hard to come by, and aren't as combat proficient as the movies show them to be. Most hitmen are only effective when the target doesn't know they are being hunted.


How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:09 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Ehhh... billions is generous. Any "X Amount of cash for kill" offer would be snuffed out quickly, as it would be impossible to make an open offer without someone finding out. Maybe they could bring in a few hitmen, but hitmen are hard to come by, and aren't as combat proficient as the movies show them to be. Most hitmen are only effective when the target doesn't know they are being hunted.


How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

Is the entirety of your knowledge on the mob based on movies?

Mercenaries, for all intents and purposes, don't exist anymore. Ex-KGB/Spetsnaz hitmen don't exist, and they never will.
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:15 am

South Americanastan wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

Is the entirety of your knowledge on the mob based on movies?

Mercenaries, for all intents and purposes, don't exist anymore. Ex-KGB/Spetsnaz hitmen don't exist, and they never will.

IM's knowledge of everything is based on movies.

User avatar
Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:19 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Ehhh... billions is generous. Any "X Amount of cash for kill" offer would be snuffed out quickly, as it would be impossible to make an open offer without someone finding out. Maybe they could bring in a few hitmen, but hitmen are hard to come by, and aren't as combat proficient as the movies show them to be. Most hitmen are only effective when the target doesn't know they are being hunted.


How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

Near all mercenaries these days are former Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans paid to protect oil wells and drive trucks. And occasionally comically fail to coup a country.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:24 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

Near all mercenaries these days are former Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans paid to protect oil wells and drive trucks. And occasionally comically fail to coup a country.


and could the mobsters hire these guys to even the playing field? Or would they be too patriotic to take those sorts of contracts?

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38837
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:25 am

South Americanastan wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
How about ex KGB/Russian special forces mercs from the Eastern bloc?

Could they be hired in large numbers or do NYC mobsters lack the type of connection to be able to hire such muscle?

Is the entirety of your knowledge on the mob based on movies?

Mercenaries, for all intents and purposes, don't exist anymore. Ex-KGB/Spetsnaz hitmen don't exist, and they never will.


Why not? Didn't a large number of ex Russian intelligence and military personnel turn to crime following the dissolution of the Soviet bloc? I thought the eastern bloc underworld had more heavily armed "muscle" than in western countries.

User avatar
South Americanastan
Minister
 
Posts: 2278
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby South Americanastan » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:28 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
South Americanastan wrote:Is the entirety of your knowledge on the mob based on movies?

Mercenaries, for all intents and purposes, don't exist anymore. Ex-KGB/Spetsnaz hitmen don't exist, and they never will.


Why not? Didn't a large number of ex Russian intelligence and military personnel turn to crime following the dissolution of the Soviet bloc? I thought the eastern bloc underworld had more heavily armed "muscle" than in western countries.

The Soviet Bloc dissolved 30 years ago. Those people are 50 now, and likely retired. Not to mention the fact that most of that crime was in the domestic Russian mob. The Eastern Bloc underworld is only viewed as tougher because the eastern european police are not able to control them, not because they're "tougher" than the western underworld.
"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid"
My Embassy Program
Proud “Effie”
HOME OF THE BEST BASEBALL TEAM IN THE GREY WARDENS

User avatar
Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:34 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Near all mercenaries these days are former Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans paid to protect oil wells and drive trucks. And occasionally comically fail to coup a country.


and could the mobsters hire these guys to even the playing field? Or would they be too patriotic to take those sorts of contracts?

More money in driving trucks.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:35 am

Wait till IM finds out that "elite US special forces operators (with lots of field op experience)" are homeless drug addicts with PTSD out the wazoo, not Captain America super soldiers.

User avatar
Heloin
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26091
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:37 am

Ifreann wrote:Wait till IM finds out that "elite US special forces operators (with lots of field op experience)" are homeless drug addicts with PTSD out the wazoo, not Captain America super soldiers.

Some of them aren’t homeless. Some of them are drug addicts with PTSD who start coffee companies.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 159134
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:38 am

Heloin wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Wait till IM finds out that "elite US special forces operators (with lots of field op experience)" are homeless drug addicts with PTSD out the wazoo, not Captain America super soldiers.

Some of them aren’t homeless. Some of them are drug addicts with PTSD who start coffee companies.

Gotta figure they're going to prioritise their coffee company over wiping out the mob.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Applebania, Armeattla, Astrobolt, Bradfordville, Continental Free States, Dumb Ideologies, Duvniask, El Lazaro, Fractalnavel, Gustatopolis, Hispida, Ifreann, Immoren, Isomedia, Lysset, Necroghastia, New Wolvers, Page, Philjia, Port Caverton, Rary, Republica de Sierra Nevada, Rio Cana, Tarsonis, The Astral Mandate, The Jamesian Republic, Valrifall, Valyxias, Zaberaz Hapang

Advertisement

Remove ads