Coronavirus Thread VII: Jagged Little Pill (READ OP)

[Andsed]

It's really not about agreeing or disagreeing.

If the hospital is full, people are going to be denied care. Why should society bend over backwards in order to accomodate people who turned down a free vaccine?

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

You may well say that yes, that is a desirable way for a healthcare system to function. I would say that it barely sounds like a healthcare system at all.

No not really. This is a discussion because hospitals are being overwhelmed. When not everyone can be treated you have to decide who to turn away, its happened plenty of times before and is nothing new.

[Antipatros]

It's really not about agreeing or disagreeing.

If the hospital is full, people are going to be denied care. Why should society bend over backwards in order to accomodate people who turned down a free vaccine?

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

You may well say that yes, that is a desirable way for a healthcare system to function. I would say that it barely sounds like a healthcare system at all.

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure. The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

[Czervenika]

lmao nothing says empathy, societal responsibility, and cooperation for the common good more than denying healthcare to people because they disagree with you

Since when did anti-vaxxers possess empathy for others, societal responsibility, etc?

[The Alma Mater]

It's really not about agreeing or disagreeing.

If the hospital is full, people are going to be denied care. Why should society bend over backwards in order to accomodate people who turned down a free vaccine?

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

In times where triage is necessary - yes.
Of course, making sure the healthcare system is so well funded and expansive that that does not happen is preferable - but that cannot be done in a day.

[Czervenika]

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

In times where triage is necessary - yes.
Of course, making sure the healthcare system is so well funded and expansive that that does not happen is preferable - but that cannot be done in a day.

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

[Kerwa]

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure. The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

So it’s a chronic problem rather than an acute one. Doesn’t mean the everyone is not paying for capacity that otherwise would not be needed. It’s still selfish to be obese or a chain smoker etc. and ought to be penalized.

[San Lumen]

In times where triage is necessary - yes.
Of course, making sure the healthcare system is so well funded and expansive that that does not happen is preferable - but that cannot be done in a day.

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

[Kragholm Free States]

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure.

Perhaps we should build healthcare systems able to adapt to changes in public health.

The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

As are vaccinated ones. In lower numbers, but still present, and each one still taking up a hospital bed. By the time they need to be in hospital, a COVID patient is a COVID patient, and needs the same treatment to keep them alive. The issue is purely, as I said, "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Deciding to answer that question with "yes" would be fairly disastrous for civilisation in the long term.

lmao nothing says empathy, societal responsibility, and cooperation for the common good more than denying healthcare to people because they disagree with you

Since when did anti-vaxxers possess empathy for others, societal responsibility, etc?

I never claimed that they did, although as with all things some will and some others will not. I merely find it curious that those who regularly accuse them of not possessing those virtues seem keen to demonstrate at every opportunity that they don't possess them either.

[Czervenika]

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

Exactly. It's baffling to me. If someone is vaccinated and still gets Covid or cannot get vaccinated (due to medical reasons or being underage) then that's obviously a different situation.

[San Lumen]

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

Exactly. It's baffling to me. If someone is vaccinated and still gets Covid or cannot get vaccinated (due to medical reasons or being underage) then that's obviously a different situation.

Im completely baffled too. Knowing you won't get treated would be a great incentive to get the vaccine.

[Immortan Khan]

In times where triage is necessary - yes.
Of course, making sure the healthcare system is so well funded and expansive that that does not happen is preferable - but that cannot be done in a day.

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

That's not how triage works.

[The Alma Mater]

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure.

Perhaps we should build healthcare systems able to adapt to changes in public health.

Perhaps. But again: that will take a few years. You cannot just pull open a can of trained medical staff.
The problem exists *now*.

But for the future perhaps a "national guard" of careproviders.

The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

As are vaccinated ones. In lower numbers, but still present, and each one still taking up a hospital bed. By the time they need to be in hospital, a COVID patient is a COVID patient, and needs the same treatment to keep them alive. The issue is purely, as I said, "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Deciding to answer that question with "yes" would be fairly disastrous for civilisation in the long term.

When you only have the capacity to save one, you will pick the person with the greatest chance of survival. That will generally be the vaccinated person in this case.

[Immortan Khan]

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

Because medical care strives to be as independent of personal choices and politics as much as possible. Do you really want to open the rabbit hole of medical staff deciding who to treat based off of political considerations and opinions?

[Antipatros]

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure. The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

So it’s a chronic problem rather than an acute one. Doesn’t mean the everyone is not paying for capacity that otherwise would not be needed. It’s still selfish to be obese or a chain smoker etc. and ought to be penalized.

Insurers charge higher premiums based on risk. Part of the rationale to levy taxes on things like soda, alcohol, and cigarettes is to offset increased costs associated with the use of these things.

We've built our healthcare system to handle normal levels of demand. Part of that demand comes from so-called lifestyle diseases and general recklessness, to be sure.

Perhaps we should build healthcare systems able to adapt to changes in public health.

The problem in this case is that unvaccinated COVID patients are flooding and overwhelming our medical system, to the point where basic care cannot be provided to others.

As are vaccinated ones. In lower numbers, but still present, and each one still taking up a hospital bed. By the time they need to be in hospital, a COVID patient is a COVID patient, and needs the same treatment to keep them alive. The issue is purely, as I said, "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Deciding to answer that question with "yes" would be fairly disastrous for civilisation in the long term.

Since when did anti-vaxxers possess empathy for others, societal responsibility, etc?

I never claimed that they did, although as with all things some will and some others will not. I merely find it curious that those who regularly accuse them of not possessing those virtues seem keen to demonstrate at every opportunity that they don't possess them either.

We do have some slack in the system. I do agree that there should be more. It is very expensive to maintain additional capacity, though.

Vaccinated COVID patients are not causing these critical shortages. If enough people were vaccinated, we would not be in this situation.

[San Lumen]

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

Because medical care strives to be as independent of personal choices and politics as much as possible. Do you really want to open the rabbit hole of medical staff deciding who to treat based off of political considerations and opinions?

In this case yes. Someone with a ruptured appendix shouldn't;'t have to wait hours and possibly die because someone else couldn't get a vaccine. Start turning unvaccinated people who need care for covid and watch the vaccination numbers skyrocket.

[The Alma Mater]

I don't get why hospitals won't do that. Someone in need of urgent care such as ruptured appendix, a gunshot victim or a car crash shouldnt have to wait for hours because someone chose not to get a vaccine is taking up space when someone needs care immediately.

Because medical care strives to be as independent of personal choices and politics as much as possible. Do you really want to open the rabbit hole of medical staff deciding who to treat based off of political considerations and opinions?

Triage is normally based on chance of survival. That would favour the vaccinated.

[Kragholm Free States]

Exactly. It's baffling to me. If someone is vaccinated and still gets Covid or cannot get vaccinated (due to medical reasons or being underage) then that's obviously a different situation.

Im completely baffled too. Knowing you won't get treated would be a great incentive to get the vaccine.

I think it would significantly worsen the climate of suspicion, distrust, and outright hatred that is a significant contributing factor to the problem in the first place, not to mention undermining any remaining faith that the healthcare system actually cares about saving lives, and legitimising conspiracy theories that ascribe sinister motives to vaccination through reinforcing the idea that the state would rather see its people dead than unvaccinated.

[Immortan Khan]

Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.

[San Lumen]

Im completely baffled too. Knowing you won't get treated would be a great incentive to get the vaccine.

I think it would significantly worsen the climate of suspicion, distrust, and outright hatred that is a significant contributing factor to the problem in the first place, not to mention undermining any remaining faith that the healthcare system actually cares about saving lives, and legitimising conspiracy theories that ascribe sinister motives to vaccination through reinforcing the idea that the state would rather see its people dead than unvaccinated.

I don't see how. No one who needs urgent care should have to wonder if they will get treated. if someone needs care for covid and they refused to get the vaccine and are turned away that would be a far better incentive than a vaccine passport.

[Immortan Khan]

Because medical care strives to be as independent of personal choices and politics as much as possible. Do you really want to open the rabbit hole of medical staff deciding who to treat based off of political considerations and opinions?

Triage is normally based on chance of survival. That would favour the vaccinated.

That is based upon what the vaccinated person is in the hospital for and other factors. Hence why it's a case by case basis and not just a catch all.

[Kragholm Free States]

No one who needs urgent care should have to wonder if they will get treated.

if someone needs care for covid and they refused to get the vaccine and are turned away that would be a far better incentive than a vaccine passport.

Pick one.

[Czervenika]

Triage is so close to becoming reality in my province. So many people I know, my mum included, all agree that the willingly unvaccinated should be placed at the bottom of the priority list for treatment.

That's not how triage works.

I'm well aware of how it works, but the lives of the unvaccinated should not be prioritized over others.

[San Lumen]

No one who needs urgent care should have to wonder if they will get treated.

if someone needs care for covid and they refused to get the vaccine and are turned away that would be a far better incentive than a vaccine passport.

Pick one.

I chose the second.

[Thermodolia]

It's really not about agreeing or disagreeing.

If the hospital is full, people are going to be denied care. Why should society bend over backwards in order to accomodate people who turned down a free vaccine?

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

You may well say that yes, that is a desirable way for a healthcare system to function. I would say that it barely sounds like a healthcare system at all.

I mean triage is a thing so…

[Thermodolia]

Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.

Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.

Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.