Coronavirus Thread VII: Jagged Little Pill (READ OP)

[Canada CA]

(follow public health guidelines like masking and so on).

Masking is one thing that I've not ever done, and I've never had the virus at all.

Neither has anybody I am related to or work with.

[Kingdom of Englands]

The poll is confusing

[Antipatros]

(follow public health guidelines like masking and so on).

Masking is one thing that I've not ever done, and I've never had the virus at all.

Neither has anybody I am related to or work with.

I'm not sure what the guidance is where you live (Canada?), but here the current guidance for Americans:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

A lot of this stuff is good to do, every when the pandemic ends (stuff like washing your hands, keeping your house clean, and covering coughs/sneezes)

[The Reformed American Republic]

I don't think we were that militaristic in our early days.

The native tribes would disagree

I would just call that genocide to be honest. Not saying that's any better, but that's not what I would think when I hear the term "militarism."

And Grave_n_idle, you don't need to parrot what someone else has already wrote just because I haven't responded yet.

I'm not going to continue this for discussion obvious reasons. I thought this was American Politics thread.

[Canada CA]

Masking is one thing that I've not ever done, and I've never had the virus at all.

Neither has anybody I am related to or work with.

I'm not sure what the guidance is where you live (Canada?), but here the current guidance for Americans:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

A lot of this stuff is good to do, every when the pandemic ends (stuff like washing your hands, keeping your house clean, and covering coughs/sneezes)

I know what the advice is. I'm from the U.S.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm not sure what the guidance is where you live (Canada?), but here the current guidance for Americans:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

A lot of this stuff is good to do, every when the pandemic ends (stuff like washing your hands, keeping your house clean, and covering coughs/sneezes)

I know what the advice is. I'm from the U.S.

Something tells me you're one of the anti-vaxxers prolonging this pandemic.

[Forsher]

What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?

He can speak for himself, but I think he's trying to point out the costs of the pandemic (and the response to it) that are not directly related to COVID-19.

That's a valid point. We could very effectively manage all of this with vaccines, but there are certain people who don't want to take them. These people often fear vaccine mandates or vaccine passports, and bemoan the harm being done to the economy by lockdowns and social distancing.

The irony is that no one would be thinking about things like vaccine passports or reintroducing restrictions if we all just took the vaccine and moved on with our lives. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It was a valid point in March 2020.

Now it's an supported assertion.

What's worse, is it might be a (a set of) unsupportable assertion(s). For example, with suicide:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n834

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... study.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56818876

You want to make claims like those, you now need to have something to back it up.

As I said before, Page's point is "fuck them, they should die so that the people who are alive are a different kind of miserable" and no matter how much that's dressed up, you have to remember that's what they're really saying. Trying to save lives is only important to Page as long as the way you're trying to save lives isn't a public health response to a contagious pandemic disease.

[The Reformed American Republic]

He can speak for himself, but I think he's trying to point out the costs of the pandemic (and the response to it) that are not directly related to COVID-19.

That's a valid point. We could very effectively manage all of this with vaccines, but there are certain people who don't want to take them. These people often fear vaccine mandates or vaccine passports, and bemoan the harm being done to the economy by lockdowns and social distancing.

The irony is that no one would be thinking about things like vaccine passports or reintroducing restrictions if we all just took the vaccine and moved on with our lives. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It was a valid point in March 2020.

Now it's an supported assertion.

What's worse, is it might be a (a set of) unsupportable assertion(s). For example, with suicide:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n834

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... study.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56818876

You want to make claims like those, you now need to have something to back it up.

As I said before, Page's point is "fuck them, they should die" (meaning everyone with Covid) and no matter how much that's dressed up, you have to remember that's what they're really saying. Trying to save lives is only important to Page as long as the way you're trying to save lives isn't a public health response to a contagious pandemic disease.

I think that's just Page being loyal to his anarchist roots and distrusting governments, not "fuck you, I've got mine." I cannot believe I'm defending Page of all people, but I don't think that's his mentality.

[Diahon]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

[Forsher]

It was a valid point in March 2020.

Now it's an supported assertion.

What's worse, is it might be a (a set of) unsupportable assertion(s). For example, with suicide:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n834

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... study.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56818876

You want to make claims like those, you now need to have something to back it up.

As I said before, Page's point is "fuck them, they should die" (meaning everyone with Covid) and no matter how much that's dressed up, you have to remember that's what they're really saying. Trying to save lives is only important to Page as long as the way you're trying to save lives isn't a public health response to a contagious pandemic disease.

I think that's just Page being loyal to his anarchist roots and distrusting governments, not "fuck you, I've got mine." I cannot believe I'm defending Page of all people, but I don't think that's his mentality.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=503997&hilit=forsher

Says it all, I think. But more specifically, try our exchange in that thread.

[San Lumen]

little by little

Italy is set to make its COVID-19 "Green Pass" mandatory for all workersfrom next month, a minister said on Wednesday, becoming the first European country to do so as it tries to accelerate vaccinations and stamp out infections.

The pass, a digital or paper certificate showing someone has received at least one vaccine dose, tested negative or recently recovered from the virus, was originally conceived to ease travel among EU states.

But Italy was among a group of countries that also made it a requirement for people to access venues such as museums, gyms and indoor dining in restaurants.

It subsequently extended use of the pass for teachers and school staff, despite frictions over the issue in Prime Minister Mario Draghi's national unity coalition. Regional Affairs Minister Mariastella Gelmini said the cabinet was ready to go still further when it met on Thursday.

"We are heading towards a mandatory Green Pass not only for public sector workers but also private sector ones," she told RAI radio. "The vaccine is the only weapon we have against COVID and we can only contain infection by vaccinating a great majority of the population."

Failure to have a Green Pass could result in workers being suspended and losing their pay. It wasn't immediately clear if it could be used as grounds for dismissal. Thursday's cabinet meeting may be a tense one. Right-wing leader Matteo Salvini, leader of the co-ruling League, has repeatedly resisted extending the use of the Green Pass, but his party is internally split on the issue.

Draghi met union leaders on Wednesday to spell out the plans. Maurizio Landini, the head of the country's largest union, CGIL, told reporters afterwards it was important that tests should be free for workers who did not want a jab.

"People should not pay to work," he said.

Opponents of the Green Pass say it tramples on freedoms and is a back-door way of forcing people to vaccinate.

Talk of making it mandatory for public sector workers alone has already triggered muted protests, which would probably be stronger if it were extended to private firms.

Several other European countries use the health pass for leisure activities and travel, but none has made it mandatory for all public or private sector workers.

I can only support something like this as a temporary measure with a fixed end date and then extended if deemed necessary.

[Forsher]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

Which are you seconding? TRAR's characterisation of Page's argument/mentality or mine?

[Kannap]

Does anyone have a resource to help people develop coping strategies for an extended pandemic lasting years (with estimates that the Covid-19 pandemic will last somewhere between 2-7 more years)?

It’s not going to last two to seven more years.

It might do.

[Washington Resistance Army]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

Anarchism doesn't oppose government, it opposes the state. While most think of the two as linked it's not inherently so.

[Kannap]

Unfortunately it took my cousin and his girlfriend getting COVID and my grandfather's brother dying from COVID but my grandmother and grandfather are finally going to get the vaccine, a sense of relief overcomes me.

[San Lumen]

It’s not going to last two to seven more years.

It might do.

It won’t.

[Forsher]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

Anarchism doesn't oppose government, it opposes the state. While most think of the two as linked it's not inherently so.

Someone got an "explain like I'm an idiot" explanation for this?

[The Reformed American Republic]

I think that's just Page being loyal to his anarchist roots and distrusting governments, not "fuck you, I've got mine." I cannot believe I'm defending Page of all people, but I don't think that's his mentality.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=503997&hilit=forsher

Says it all, I think. But more specifically, try our exchange in that thread.

Page is just tired of all the restrictions he has to abide by and them not working anyway due to the anti-vaxxers and most of the right-wingers going out of their way to undermine them. This reminds me when I got frustrated and said something similar and got treated like the worst human being on Earth in a previous iteration of this thread, even though I was in accordance with CDC guidelines for vaccinated people at the time.

[Kannap]

little by little

Italy is set to make its COVID-19 "Green Pass" mandatory for all workersfrom next month, a minister said on Wednesday, becoming the first European country to do so as it tries to accelerate vaccinations and stamp out infections.

The pass, a digital or paper certificate showing someone has received at least one vaccine dose, tested negative or recently recovered from the virus, was originally conceived to ease travel among EU states.

But Italy was among a group of countries that also made it a requirement for people to access venues such as museums, gyms and indoor dining in restaurants.

It subsequently extended use of the pass for teachers and school staff, despite frictions over the issue in Prime Minister Mario Draghi's national unity coalition. Regional Affairs Minister Mariastella Gelmini said the cabinet was ready to go still further when it met on Thursday.

"We are heading towards a mandatory Green Pass not only for public sector workers but also private sector ones," she told RAI radio. "The vaccine is the only weapon we have against COVID and we can only contain infection by vaccinating a great majority of the population."

Failure to have a Green Pass could result in workers being suspended and losing their pay. It wasn't immediately clear if it could be used as grounds for dismissal. Thursday's cabinet meeting may be a tense one. Right-wing leader Matteo Salvini, leader of the co-ruling League, has repeatedly resisted extending the use of the Green Pass, but his party is internally split on the issue.

Draghi met union leaders on Wednesday to spell out the plans. Maurizio Landini, the head of the country's largest union, CGIL, told reporters afterwards it was important that tests should be free for workers who did not want a jab.

"People should not pay to work," he said.

Opponents of the Green Pass say it tramples on freedoms and is a back-door way of forcing people to vaccinate.

Talk of making it mandatory for public sector workers alone has already triggered muted protests, which would probably be stronger if it were extended to private firms.

Several other European countries use the health pass for leisure activities and travel, but none has made it mandatory for all public or private sector workers.

I can only support something like this as a temporary measure with a fixed end date and then extended if deemed necessary.

Since the pandemic doesn't have a fixed end date, it's impossible to set fixed end dates for measures that come with the pandemic.

As for your second point, the past year and a half indicate you don't believe extensions to these things are necessary.

[Forsher]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=503997&hilit=forsher

Says it all, I think. But more specifically, try our exchange in that thread.

Page is just tired of all the restrictions he has to abide by and them not working anyway due to the anti-vaxxers and most of the right-wingers going out of their way to undermine them. This reminds me when I got frustrated and said something similar and got treated like the worst human being on Earth in a previous iteration of this thread, even though I was in accordance with CDC guidelines for vaccinated people at the time.

I guess we should leave it to the man himself, but I really do not get that sense, at all, from his posts.

It's something about the way his signature calls public health advocates bootlickers.

[Kannap]

It might do.

It won’t.

Except if we don't do anything to end this pandemic, which is the current trajectory we're following - one of inaction - then it might

Unless you're an all-knowing god of some kind (if you are you have to tell me), then you cannot speak in absolutes because you don't know the pandemic won't last that long, just like none of us know if it will. Hence why I say it might rather than it will.

[Arvenia]

The poll is confusing

What is the meaning behind those options?

[Diahon]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

Which are you seconding? TRAR's characterisation of Page's argument/mentality or mine?

not yours

[Forsher]

Which are you seconding? TRAR's characterisation of Page's argument/mentality or mine?

not yours

Then I don't see how your point isn't diametrically opposed to TRAR's version.

[Diahon]

i second that, to an extent

what's missing in anarchist and libertarian critiques (as well as whatever the fuck vakolicci has got going on), though, is the sense that shit like this fucking pandemic is exactly why there must be government

Anarchism doesn't oppose government, it opposes the state. While most think of the two as linked it's not inherently so.

in practice, what those twin objections amount to is the same loss of emphasis in centralization in favor of localized approaches

which isn't something i'm opposed to -- in normal times