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by Antipatros » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:48 pm
by Czervenika » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:54 pm
Antipatros wrote:See, normally you can just levy a excise tax or increase insurance premiums to handle these sorts of issues.
In this situation, it's not just about increased medical costs. The increased demand is such that basic healthcare is being made unavailable. The remedy is for people to get vaccinated, which is not too much to ask.
Our society places a high value on personal choice and personal freedom. In my opinion, personal responsibility should come along with that, if that's how we're going to choose to handle this problem. This debate reminds me of the debates about lemon socialism (essentially using public money to bail out or support failing companies, which effective means that losses are socialized).
by Kragholm Free States » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:54 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Kragholm Free States wrote:
Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?
You may well say that yes, that is a desirable way for a healthcare system to function. I would say that it barely sounds like a healthcare system at all.
I mean triage is a thing so…
by Immortan Khan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:58 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Immortan Khan wrote:Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.
Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.
Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.
by The Reformed American Republic » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:59 pm
Immortan Khan wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.
Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.
Oh sorry I thought we were aiming to corrupt the medical field and turn it into something it shouldn't be.
by Czervenika » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:01 pm
by Canada CA » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:04 pm
Czervenika wrote:Okay. Good to know you've done that at least. People who are able to get vaccinated and refuse to simply make me angry.
by Kragholm Free States » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:04 pm
Czervenika wrote:The Reformed American Republic wrote:The only people severely burdening the medical profession are the unvaccinated covid-19 patients.
Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.
by Antipatros » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:06 pm
Kragholm Free States wrote:Czervenika wrote:
Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.
Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?
by Vassenor » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:06 pm
Canada CA wrote:Czervenika wrote:Okay. Good to know you've done that at least. People who are able to get vaccinated and refuse to simply make me angry.
What makes me angry is people hysterically ranting that "people can't be trusted with freedom" because some people don't want vaccines, or to wear masks.
by Antipatros » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:07 pm
Antipatros wrote:Kragholm Free States wrote:
Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?
No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.
If extra capacity is available, take them in.
by Canada CA » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:08 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Immortan Khan wrote:Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.
Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.
Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.
by Czervenika » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:08 pm
Kragholm Free States wrote:Czervenika wrote:
Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.
Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?
by Vassenor » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:10 pm
Canada CA wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.
Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.
This is probably one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever posted.
You're saying that someone who hasn't got a vaccine doesn't deserve treatment because they've knowingly endangered their own lives...
...but the fact that suicidal people have done exactly the same thing... makes them higher priority? What...?
by Immortan Khan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:10 pm
by Kragholm Free States » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:10 pm
Antipatros wrote:Kragholm Free States wrote:
Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?
No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.
If extra capacity is available, take them in.
Czervenika wrote:Not everyone with heart conditions and diabetes got those conditions through poor lifestyle choices. Refusing to take the Covid vaccine, however, is a lifestyle choice. The two cannot really be compared.
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm
Kragholm Free States wrote:Antipatros wrote:No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.
If extra capacity is available, take them in.
The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.
A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.
If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?
by Immortan Khan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:15 pm
Vassenor wrote:Canada CA wrote:This is probably one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever posted.
You're saying that someone who hasn't got a vaccine doesn't deserve treatment because they've knowingly endangered their own lives...
...but the fact that suicidal people have done exactly the same thing... makes them higher priority? What...?
How does a suicide attempt actively endanger society at large?
by Antipatros » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:15 pm
by Thermodolia » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:15 pm
Kragholm Free States wrote:Czervenika wrote:
Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.
Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?
by San Lumen » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:17 pm
Antipatros wrote:San Lumen wrote:
If an employer wants to mandate it fine but you cannot force medical treatment on someone against their will.
In my opinion, we pick one or the other. This middle ground where the pandemic is prolonged for years and the quality of healthcare falls to a third world level for those who can't get a hospital bed during COVID surges is intolerable.
by Kragholm Free States » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:18 pm
San Lumen wrote:Kragholm Free States wrote:
The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.
A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.
If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?
Because people are willingly choosing not to get the vaccine. They should not take priority over someone with a heart attack.
by Antipatros » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:18 pm
Kragholm Free States wrote:Antipatros wrote:No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.
If extra capacity is available, take them in.
The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.
A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.
If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?Czervenika wrote:Not everyone with heart conditions and diabetes got those conditions through poor lifestyle choices. Refusing to take the Covid vaccine, however, is a lifestyle choice. The two cannot really be compared.
Not everyone, no, but I'm sure we could free up a good chunk of space if we kicked out the ones who did. Good idea?
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