Coronavirus Thread VII: Jagged Little Pill (READ OP)

[Antipatros]

See, normally you can just levy a excise tax or increase insurance premiums to handle these sorts of issues.

In this situation, it's not just about increased medical costs. The increased demand is such that basic healthcare is being made unavailable. The remedy is for people to get vaccinated, which is not too much to ask.

Our society places a high value on personal choice and personal freedom. In my opinion, personal responsibility should come along with that, if that's how we're going to choose to handle this problem. This debate reminds me of the debates about lemon socialism (essentially using public money to bail out or support failing companies, which effective means that losses are socialized).

[Czervenika]

See, normally you can just levy a excise tax or increase insurance premiums to handle these sorts of issues.

In this situation, it's not just about increased medical costs. The increased demand is such that basic healthcare is being made unavailable. The remedy is for people to get vaccinated, which is not too much to ask.

Our society places a high value on personal choice and personal freedom. In my opinion, personal responsibility should come along with that, if that's how we're going to choose to handle this problem. This debate reminds me of the debates about lemon socialism (essentially using public money to bail out or support failing companies, which effective means that losses are socialized).

People who cannot be socially responsible do not deserve freedom, imo. With freedom does come responsibility. It's just immature to act otherwise.

[Kragholm Free States]

Well the thing is this is a question that goes well beyond the specific case of the covid vaccine, because precedent informs broader policy, and into a more general question of "is it morally acceptable for the healthcare system to deny care to people if their condition is deemed to be the fault of their own poor decisions". Should hospitals turn away someone who's just had a heart attack, if it was caused by them eating themselves into obesity? Should the chain-smoking lung cancer sufferer be refused care, or the alcoholic with liver failure? What about the people who come in with broken limbs from their participation in extreme sports? Injuries from failed suicide attempts, should they be turned away too? Someone having a severe allergic reaction because they didn't read the menu properly in a restaurant and ordered the wrong thing?

You may well say that yes, that is a desirable way for a healthcare system to function. I would say that it barely sounds like a healthcare system at all.

I mean triage is a thing so…

It is, but unless you're under the impression that everyone admitted to hospital with covid is an identical clone then it's not "triage" to universally declare that the vaccinated should be prioritised over the unvaccinated. Let's say you have a 20 year old, physically fit, didn't bother getting their jab, but got unlucky and now they've ended up needing hospital treatment for covid. You also have a 70 year old, fat, alcoholic, chain smoker, with a variety of other health conditions, who's had both their jabs. The hospital has one bed. Which one would proper triage prioritise? Which one would the sociopathic medical-penal system this thread seems so enamoured with prioritise?

[Immortan Khan]

That's not how triage works.

I'm well aware of how it works, but the lives of the unvaccinated should not be prioritized over others.

Depends entirely on the situation.

[Immortan Khan]

Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.

Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.

Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.

Oh sorry I thought we were aiming to corrupt the medical field and turn it into something it shouldn't be.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.

Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.

Oh sorry I thought we were aiming to corrupt the medical field and turn it into something it shouldn't be.

The only people severely burdening the medical profession are the unvaccinated covid-19 patients.

[Czervenika]

Oh sorry I thought we were aiming to corrupt the medical field and turn it into something it shouldn't be.

The only people severely burdening the medical profession are the unvaccinated covid-19 patients.

Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.

[Canada CA]

Okay. Good to know you've done that at least. People who are able to get vaccinated and refuse to simply make me angry.

What makes me angry is people hysterically ranting that "people can't be trusted with freedom" because some people don't want vaccines, or to wear masks.

[Kragholm Free States]

The only people severely burdening the medical profession are the unvaccinated covid-19 patients.

Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

[Antipatros]

Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

[Vassenor]

Okay. Good to know you've done that at least. People who are able to get vaccinated and refuse to simply make me angry.

What makes me angry is people hysterically ranting that "people can't be trusted with freedom" because some people don't want vaccines, or to wear masks.

And people getting hysterical about the idea of being expected to make small changes to their lives to help other people when they just want to jam their head in the sand and pretend the whole thing isn't real.

[Antipatros]

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

That, if we want to go on and continue treating everyone the same, impose mandatory vaccinations.

[Canada CA]

Things can start shunting down the list of care: People with STI's, fat people, people who play sports, suicide attempts.

Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.

Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever posted.

You're saying that someone who hasn't got a vaccine doesn't deserve treatment because they've knowingly endangered their own lives...

...but the fact that suicidal people have done exactly the same thing... makes them higher priority? What...?

[Czervenika]

Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

Not everyone with heart conditions and diabetes got those conditions through poor lifestyle choices. Refusing to take the Covid vaccine, however, is a lifestyle choice. The two cannot really be compared.

[San Lumen]

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

That, if we want to go on and continue treating everyone the same, impose mandatory vaccinations.

If an employer wants to mandate it fine but you cannot force medical treatment on someone against their will.

[Vassenor]

Hence why it should only happen in a last resort situation. Outside of that no. An STI isn’t going to kill you in 24 to 48 hours, but a heart attack will.

Suicidal people are more important than COVID patients because they have attempted to end their life therefore they should get immediate care.

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever posted.

You're saying that someone who hasn't got a vaccine doesn't deserve treatment because they've knowingly endangered their own lives...

...but the fact that suicidal people have done exactly the same thing... makes them higher priority? What...?

How does a suicide attempt actively endanger society at large?

[Immortan Khan]

Oh sorry I thought we were aiming to corrupt the medical field and turn it into something it shouldn't be.

The only people severely burdening the medical profession are the unvaccinated covid-19 patients.

The medical field has been strained for a long time because over being understaffed and overburdened lmao. Fat people, people not taking their meds like the should, etc down the list. But the point is, we shouldn't be opening this door because it has the potential to lead to very bad places in the future. Furthermore, it runs counter to medical ethics. If the unvaccinated COVID patient is the one who needs the most attentive care in order to live, then they should receive it because that is the mission of medicine. If a gang member comes in with multiple gunshot wounds, should the hospital lower their priority? No, because that defeats the fucking purpose of medicine. You people want to corrupt into something vile because your own hearts have rotted because of dumb as shit polarization. Do you really think that doing this will improve the reputation of the medical field for the demographics with higher rates of vaccination hesitancy? All you do is give them ammo. This isn't to mention that the demographics with lower rates of vaccination and higher rates of vaccine hesitancy are disproportionately poorer and non-white.

[Kragholm Free States]

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.

A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.

If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?

Not everyone with heart conditions and diabetes got those conditions through poor lifestyle choices. Refusing to take the Covid vaccine, however, is a lifestyle choice. The two cannot really be compared.

Not everyone, no, but I'm sure we could free up a good chunk of space if we kicked out the ones who did. Good idea?

[San Lumen]

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.

A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.

If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?

Because people are willingly choosing not to get the vaccine. They should not take priority over someone with a heart attack.

[Immortan Khan]

This is probably one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever posted.

You're saying that someone who hasn't got a vaccine doesn't deserve treatment because they've knowingly endangered their own lives...

...but the fact that suicidal people have done exactly the same thing... makes them higher priority? What...?

How does a suicide attempt actively endanger society at large?

They are taking up a bed.

[Antipatros]

That, if we want to go on and continue treating everyone the same, impose mandatory vaccinations.

If an employer wants to mandate it fine but you cannot force medical treatment on someone against their will.

In my opinion, we pick one or the other. This middle ground where the pandemic is prolonged for years and the quality of healthcare falls to a third world level for those who can't get a hospital bed during COVID surges is intolerable.

[Thermodolia]

Yea, we don't see diabetics, heart attack victims, etc. overcrowding hospitals to the level Covid patients are now. Even during the worst flu seasons that doesn't happen.

Sure, but there still are diabetics and heart attack victims in hospitals right now. Should we kick out the ones whose lifestyle choices got them into that state and give their beds to vaccinated covid patients?

The good thing is that people vaccinated against Covid aren’t going to the hospital for covid issues.


In other news the Covid death toll has now surpassed the 1918 flu pandemic deaths, in 1918 675,000 Americans died. As of today the US has 688,000 deaths

[San Lumen]

If an employer wants to mandate it fine but you cannot force medical treatment on someone against their will.

In my opinion, we pick one or the other. This middle ground where the pandemic is prolonged for years and the quality of healthcare falls to a third world level for those who can't get a hospital bed during COVID surges is intolerable.

It will not be prolonged for years. Stop treating those for Covid who didn’t get the vaccine and watch the numbers skyrocket.

[Kragholm Free States]

The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.

A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.

If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?

Because people are willingly choosing not to get the vaccine. They should not take priority over someone with a heart attack.

Many people who suffer from heart attacks are in that position because they willingly and for a prolonged period lived extremely unhealthy lives, ate poor diets in large quantities and did no exercise, knowing that doing so would put them at a vastly increased risk of having a heart attack.

Many people who suffer from severe covid are in that position because they willingly refused to get vaccinated, knowing that doing so would put them at a vastly increased risk of having severe covid.

Why should the first be treated as usual and the second turned away?

[Antipatros]

No. Just let the ones who are causing the problem to face the consequences of their decisions.

If extra capacity is available, take them in.

The problem we're talking about in this case is too many people, not enough hospital beds.

A morbidly obese heart attack victim takes up one hospital bed.
An unvaccinated covid patient takes up one hospital bed.
A vaccinated covid patient also takes up one hospital bed.

If you want the healthcare system to use people's lifestyle choices as reasons to allow or deny their access to a hospital bed, why deny the second but not the first?

Not everyone with heart conditions and diabetes got those conditions through poor lifestyle choices. Refusing to take the Covid vaccine, however, is a lifestyle choice. The two cannot really be compared.

Not everyone, no, but I'm sure we could free up a good chunk of space if we kicked out the ones who did. Good idea?

Because we can cope with morbidly obese people suffering heart attacks or vaccinated COVID patients taking up beds. We have the resources to do that.

If we could cope with unvaccinated COVID patients this wouldn't even be a question.