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Coronavirus Thread VII: One Day, I'll Fly Away (READ OP)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should those wilfully unvaccinated against COVID-19 receive a lower priority for hospital treatment?

YES, ALWAYS - vaccination should be a basic precaution to protect your health and that of society
15
16%
YES, BUT JUST FOR COVID-19 - you shouldn't get COVID treatment if you don't want to be safe from it
25
27%
NO, NEVER - healthcare should be based on the patient's need, not their circumstances
52
57%
 
Total votes : 92

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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:59 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Marburg is not airborne,

Not with that attitude

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:10 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Marburg is not airborne,

Not with that attitude

Viruses don’t change how they are transmitted.

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Postby Xmara » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:13 pm

Just got a text from mom. One of my uncles and his son are in the hospital with covid. His daughter in law, grandson, grandson's girlfriend, and great grand-daughter also have covid.

Also, a cousin on my dad's side is in the hospital with cellulitis. Unfortunately, he is unvaccinated and lives in Alabama. Hopefully he won't catch it.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:16 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Not with that attitude

Viruses don’t change how they are transmitted.

Ya sure about that?
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Antipatros
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Postby Antipatros » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:19 pm

Kowani wrote:
Antipatros wrote:Mercifully, it appears that the US hospitalization totals are peaking.


wait 'till winter

i don't mean to be a downer but a lot of people here were crushed when it looked like the worst of the pandemic was behind us and then the anti-vaxx seeds came to root so
keep your expectations realistic, people!

Yep, I fully expect a winter wave. In the mean time, we gotta get as many people vaccinated as possible. That or build a wall around the South.
Last edited by Antipatros on Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:22 pm

Ohio judge rules that hospitals cannot be forced too administer ivermectin

A judge ruled Monday that an Ohio hospital cannot be forced to give a patient ivermectin for Covid-19, reversing an earlier decision that ordered it to administer a parasite medication that has not been approved to treat the disease. In an 11-page decision, Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Michael Oster Jr. wrote that there “was no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19.” Based on the current evidence, Oster wrote, the drug — which is primarily used to deworm horses but has been promoted by some doctors, some Republicans and the popular podcast host Joe Rogan to combat the coronavirus — “is not an effective treatment for Covid-19.”

Oster cited advisories from the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical associations that have warned against using the medication for Covid-19.

Oster also cited problems with research into using ivermectin to treat the disease, including the withdrawal of a non-peer-reviewed study from a website that posts academic pre-prints.

Julie Smith, the wife of the patient, Jeffrey Smith, had sued the hospital to force doctors to administer the medication.

“While this court is sympathetic to the plaintiff and understands the idea of wanting to do anything to help her loved one, public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try ‘any’ type of treatment on human beings,” he wrote.

Jeffrey Smith, 51, tested positive for the virus on July 9 and was admitted to West Chester Hospital nearly a week later, according to court documents. He was intubated on Aug. 1, and by Aug. 19 his chances of survival had dipped below 30 percent.

Julie Smith demanded that the hospital administer ivermectin, but doctors refused. The medication had been prescribed by Dr. Fred Wagshul, a pulmonologist unaffiliated with West Chester who advocates for the use of ivermectin for Covid-19 and once told the Ohio Capital Journal that not using it was like “genocide.”

A different judge issued a temporary injunction Aug. 23, ordering doctors to begin administering the medication for two weeks.

Oster, who held two days of hearings last week, said Wagshul could not confirm in court whether the medication’s continued use would benefit Smith. Wagshul said Smith’s condition “seems to” have improved, Oster added.

In a statement, an attorney for Jeffrey Smith, Jonathan Davidson, said he was disappointed by Oster’s ruling.

“While he has likely received his last dose at UC West Chester hospital, we can only hope his condition continues to trend positively,” Davidson said, adding that his client’s condition had stabilized and is improving.

UC Health, which operates West Chester Hospital, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokeswoman told The Cincinnati Enquirer that the decision was “positive.”

“We implore all members of the community to do what we know works: wear a mask, become fully vaccinated and use social distancing whenever possible,” Martin told the newspaper. “At UC Health, we respect the expertise of our clinicians and appreciate the scientific rigor used to develop treatments, medications and other therapies.

“We do not believe that hospitals or clinicians should be ordered to administer medications and/or therapies, especially unproven medications and/or therapies, against medical advice.”
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Postby Xmara » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:32 pm

Antipatros wrote:
Kowani wrote:wait 'till winter

i don't mean to be a downer but a lot of people here were crushed when it looked like the worst of the pandemic was behind us and then the anti-vaxx seeds came to root so
keep your expectations realistic, people!

Yep, I fully expect a winter wave. In the mean time, we gotta get as many people vaccinated as possible. That or build a wall around the South.

And make the South pay for it!
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Postby Valentine Z » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:45 pm

Xmara wrote:Just got a text from mom. One of my uncles and his son are in the hospital with covid. His daughter in law, grandson, grandson's girlfriend, and great grand-daughter also have covid.

Also, a cousin on my dad's side is in the hospital with cellulitis. Unfortunately, he is unvaccinated and lives in Alabama. Hopefully he won't catch it.

Oh dear, wishing them all the best! That's... That's a lot of cases in your extended family, sorry to hear.
Last edited by Valentine Z on Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Xmara » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:47 pm

Valentine Z wrote:
Xmara wrote:Just got a text from mom. One of my uncles and his son are in the hospital with covid. His daughter in law, grandson, grandson's girlfriend, and great grand-daughter also have covid.

Also, a cousin on my dad's side is in the hospital with cellulitis. Unfortunately, he is unvaccinated and lives in Alabama. Hopefully he won't catch it.

Oh dear, wishing them all the best! That's... That's a lot of cases in your extended family, sorry to hear.

Thanks. IDK if any of them are vaccinated. I've not been around any of them in quite a while.
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Postby North Washington Republic » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:23 pm

I think Minnesota may be the next Florida in about two weeks.
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:24 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:I think Minnesota may be the next Florida in about two weeks.

Nobody can ever become Florida. Florida will always be Florida, nobody else ever will.
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North Washington Republic wrote:I think Minnesota may be the next Florida in about two weeks.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:29 pm

Xmara wrote:
Valentine Z wrote:Oh dear, wishing them all the best! That's... That's a lot of cases in your extended family, sorry to hear.

Thanks. IDK if any of them are vaccinated. I've not been around any of them in quite a while.


I was going to ask that…..still it’s just a head-shaker to see people avoid the vaccine. Some times the cases are just down right sad as one doc mentioned a patient who had been avoiding the vaccine because he thought there were people who needed it more.

A failure in information dispersal. Not surprising since this was last year or so…..
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Postby North Washington Republic » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:31 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
North Washington Republic wrote:I think Minnesota may be the next Florida in about two weeks.

Nobody can ever become Florida. Florida will always be Florida, nobody else ever will.


Well, our state fair just ended. No mask requirements. School starts for most people either tomorrow or Wednesday. Some school districts are requiring masks, some are not. What I know what’s going to happen. The unvaccinated from “greater Minnesota” is going to bring COVID back where they live and spread it. Then they are going to cause their hospitals to overfill and then they’re going to seep into our hospitals in the city.
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:34 pm

North Washington Republic wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:Nobody can ever become Florida. Florida will always be Florida, nobody else ever will.


Well, our state fair just ended. No mask requirements. School starts for most people either tomorrow or Wednesday. Some school districts are requiring masks, some are not. What I know what’s going to happen. The unvaccinated from “greater Minnesota” is going to bring COVID back where they live and spread it. Then they are going to cause their hospitals to overfill and then they’re going to seep into our hospitals in the city.

Yes.

But FLORIDA. Minnesotans will never become FLORIDA. There will never be a Minnesota Man. There will never be extremely dumb police arrests. There will never be FLORIDA in MINNESOTA
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North Washington Republic wrote:I think Minnesota may be the next Florida in about two weeks.

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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:46 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:
Xmara wrote:Based on what I've read, the mu variant doesn't appear to be as transmissible as the delta variant, so it will likely not become the dominant variant any time soon (unlike delta, which seemed to become the dominant variant overnight). However, unlike delta, mu has the infamous E484K "escape mutation," meaning that it has the potential to infect even people who are vaccinated. Beta, gamma, and zeta all have the E484K mutation. Beta and gamma are WHO variants of concern, while zeta was dropped as a variant of interest back in July. So obviously it's not the sole mutation we need to worry about.

IMO, I don't think that a variant that is both highly transmissible and highly lethal at the same time is likely to emerge. That seems to be an extreme worst case scenario. Not saying it's impossible, just improbable. I'm really trying hard to maintain some degree of optimism that this pandemic is not an extinction level event.

This pandemic is absolutely not going to be extinction level in any way.

Yet.

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CoraSpia
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Postby CoraSpia » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:31 pm

Kowani wrote:Ohio judge rules that hospitals cannot be forced too administer ivermectin

A judge ruled Monday that an Ohio hospital cannot be forced to give a patient ivermectin for Covid-19, reversing an earlier decision that ordered it to administer a parasite medication that has not been approved to treat the disease. In an 11-page decision, Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Michael Oster Jr. wrote that there “was no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19.” Based on the current evidence, Oster wrote, the drug — which is primarily used to deworm horses but has been promoted by some doctors, some Republicans and the popular podcast host Joe Rogan to combat the coronavirus — “is not an effective treatment for Covid-19.”

Oster cited advisories from the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical associations that have warned against using the medication for Covid-19.

Oster also cited problems with research into using ivermectin to treat the disease, including the withdrawal of a non-peer-reviewed study from a website that posts academic pre-prints.

Julie Smith, the wife of the patient, Jeffrey Smith, had sued the hospital to force doctors to administer the medication.

“While this court is sympathetic to the plaintiff and understands the idea of wanting to do anything to help her loved one, public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try ‘any’ type of treatment on human beings,” he wrote.

Jeffrey Smith, 51, tested positive for the virus on July 9 and was admitted to West Chester Hospital nearly a week later, according to court documents. He was intubated on Aug. 1, and by Aug. 19 his chances of survival had dipped below 30 percent.

Julie Smith demanded that the hospital administer ivermectin, but doctors refused. The medication had been prescribed by Dr. Fred Wagshul, a pulmonologist unaffiliated with West Chester who advocates for the use of ivermectin for Covid-19 and once told the Ohio Capital Journal that not using it was like “genocide.”

A different judge issued a temporary injunction Aug. 23, ordering doctors to begin administering the medication for two weeks.

Oster, who held two days of hearings last week, said Wagshul could not confirm in court whether the medication’s continued use would benefit Smith. Wagshul said Smith’s condition “seems to” have improved, Oster added.

In a statement, an attorney for Jeffrey Smith, Jonathan Davidson, said he was disappointed by Oster’s ruling.

“While he has likely received his last dose at UC West Chester hospital, we can only hope his condition continues to trend positively,” Davidson said, adding that his client’s condition had stabilized and is improving.

UC Health, which operates West Chester Hospital, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokeswoman told The Cincinnati Enquirer that the decision was “positive.”

“We implore all members of the community to do what we know works: wear a mask, become fully vaccinated and use social distancing whenever possible,” Martin told the newspaper. “At UC Health, we respect the expertise of our clinicians and appreciate the scientific rigor used to develop treatments, medications and other therapies.

“We do not believe that hospitals or clinicians should be ordered to administer medications and/or therapies, especially unproven medications and/or therapies, against medical advice.”

Can't help but feel that, if a person has capacity to give informed consent (not 'make the right decision' they're too different things) and they're prepared to pay for the extra treatment that won't work and that they don't work, they should be entitled to get whatever treatment they want.
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The Sherpa Empire
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:35 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:

Of course MSNBC does this. They are a liberal propaganda outlet. That and FOX News are the two main news outlets that are fueling a more and more partisan society, in tandem with social media echochambers of varying leftist degrees, with more fringe alternative media sites fueling far-right partisanship.


CNN is much worse than MSNBC for that.
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:48 pm

Xmara wrote:
Diahon wrote:I'm really trying hard to maintain some degree of optimism that this pandemic is not an extinction level event.


It's not even close to an extinction level event.
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:55 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:There will never be extremely dumb police arrests.


George Floyd called. He wants his life back.
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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:14 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Xmara wrote:

It's not even close to an extinction level event.

Yet.

If nothing else, the mentality present now can harbor such an event, probably even as we speak.

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Antipatros
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Postby Antipatros » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:14 am


Notice how some outlets worded their articles.

"Oklahoma's ERs are so backed up with people overdosing on ivermectin that gunshot victims are having to wait to be treated, a doctor says"

Technically correct, but not too helpful. This whole episode also shows that a lot of news outfits also just copy paste off of one another.

CoraSpia wrote:Can't help but feel that, if a person has capacity to give informed consent (not 'make the right decision' they're too different things) and they're prepared to pay for the extra treatment that won't work and that they don't work, they should be entitled to get whatever treatment they want.

That, or they can use treatments that actually work. Or even better, use preventative measures like vaccination to stop people from ending up in the hospital to begin with.

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The Sherpa Empire
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:17 am

Diahon wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:It's not even close to an extinction level event.

Yet.

If nothing else, the mentality present now can harbor such an event, probably even as we speak.


Panicking and treating it like an extinction level event is not helpful.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:21 am

CoraSpia wrote:Can't help but feel that, if a person has capacity to give informed consent (not 'make the right decision' they're too different things) and they're prepared to pay for the extra treatment that won't work and that they don't work, they should be entitled to get whatever treatment they want.

I mean if somebody rich and dumb enough wants to die they could go ask somebody willing to do euthanasia instead of whatever this is.

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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:22 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Diahon wrote:Yet.

If nothing else, the mentality present now can harbor such an event, probably even as we speak.


Panicking and treating it like an extinction level event is not helpful.


Assuming that this revolver that we keep on loading with bullets won't eventually shoot us dead with enough spins is even more unhelpful. It fosters laziness. Wishful thinking. A kind of apathy despite all the carnage we let on.

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Founded: Apr 01, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Diahon » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:25 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Ohio judge rules that hospitals cannot be forced too administer ivermectin

A judge ruled Monday that an Ohio hospital cannot be forced to give a patient ivermectin for Covid-19, reversing an earlier decision that ordered it to administer a parasite medication that has not been approved to treat the disease. In an 11-page decision, Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Michael Oster Jr. wrote that there “was no doubt that the medical and scientific communities do not support the use of ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19.” Based on the current evidence, Oster wrote, the drug — which is primarily used to deworm horses but has been promoted by some doctors, some Republicans and the popular podcast host Joe Rogan to combat the coronavirus — “is not an effective treatment for Covid-19.”

Oster cited advisories from the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical associations that have warned against using the medication for Covid-19.

Oster also cited problems with research into using ivermectin to treat the disease, including the withdrawal of a non-peer-reviewed study from a website that posts academic pre-prints.

Julie Smith, the wife of the patient, Jeffrey Smith, had sued the hospital to force doctors to administer the medication.

“While this court is sympathetic to the plaintiff and understands the idea of wanting to do anything to help her loved one, public policy should not and does not support allowing physicians to try ‘any’ type of treatment on human beings,” he wrote.

Jeffrey Smith, 51, tested positive for the virus on July 9 and was admitted to West Chester Hospital nearly a week later, according to court documents. He was intubated on Aug. 1, and by Aug. 19 his chances of survival had dipped below 30 percent.

Julie Smith demanded that the hospital administer ivermectin, but doctors refused. The medication had been prescribed by Dr. Fred Wagshul, a pulmonologist unaffiliated with West Chester who advocates for the use of ivermectin for Covid-19 and once told the Ohio Capital Journal that not using it was like “genocide.”

A different judge issued a temporary injunction Aug. 23, ordering doctors to begin administering the medication for two weeks.

Oster, who held two days of hearings last week, said Wagshul could not confirm in court whether the medication’s continued use would benefit Smith. Wagshul said Smith’s condition “seems to” have improved, Oster added.

In a statement, an attorney for Jeffrey Smith, Jonathan Davidson, said he was disappointed by Oster’s ruling.

“While he has likely received his last dose at UC West Chester hospital, we can only hope his condition continues to trend positively,” Davidson said, adding that his client’s condition had stabilized and is improving.

UC Health, which operates West Chester Hospital, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokeswoman told The Cincinnati Enquirer that the decision was “positive.”

“We implore all members of the community to do what we know works: wear a mask, become fully vaccinated and use social distancing whenever possible,” Martin told the newspaper. “At UC Health, we respect the expertise of our clinicians and appreciate the scientific rigor used to develop treatments, medications and other therapies.

“We do not believe that hospitals or clinicians should be ordered to administer medications and/or therapies, especially unproven medications and/or therapies, against medical advice.”

Can't help but feel that, if a person has capacity to give informed consent (not 'make the right decision' they're too different things) and they're prepared to pay for the extra treatment that won't work and that they don't work, they should be entitled to get whatever treatment they want.

If one is being fed bullshit and then makes a choice not knowing there are better choices, or -- and infinitely worse -- thinks that the bullshit is superior, the people feeding him that bullshit are murderers, and there is blood on their fucking hands.

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