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Should the State of Israel have a right to exist?

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Chess Reloaded
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:14 am

Middle Easterners who sympathize with Hitler or deny the Holocaust still don't generally use a Swastika because it's seen as either a cross or a Hindu symbol, even Hamas would get angry at such a flag

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Chess Reloaded
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:18 am

Some Palestinian Christians might be okay with the symbol but they wouldn't fly it like that out sensitivity because Palestinian Christians and Muslims tend to have a lot of solidarity, Hamas visits churches, though of course this flag is said to be on the west bank which isn't under Hamas

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:35 am

Chess Reloaded wrote:Some Palestinian Christians might be okay with the symbol but they wouldn't fly it like that out sensitivity because Palestinian Christians and Muslims tend to have a lot of solidarity, Hamas visits churches, though of course this flag is said to be on the west bank which isn't under Hamas

It's not inconceivable that some Palestinians would fly it as an expression of Antisemitism. Neo-Nazis, on the whole, tend to be weirdos in whatever society they happen to be in. More to the point though, Palestinian political culture is pretty deeply Antisemitic - both as a consequence of a seventy year long conflict and due to how Palestinians are socialized and educated. That's one part of why a two-state solution is probably obligatory if we want peace without a genocide at this point.
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gulag this. Siberia that. No. When I seize power in a coup, people who were ugly to other people will be sent to a pony farm to feed small horses apples and sugar cubes as penance for their crimes against wholesomeness.
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Cosmic79
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Postby Cosmic79 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:05 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Cosmic79 wrote:

It's real: https://twitter.com/dannydanon/status/1 ... 7247345672

At least "anti-zionists" are being honest here.


Weird. That's a magically floating flag that spontaneously crashes when you put a camera on it.

What are we supposed to be seeing, here?


Twitter users defending Nazi Germany's flag, mostly

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Cosmic79
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Postby Cosmic79 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:07 am

Chess Reloaded wrote:Middle Easterners who sympathize with Hitler or deny the Holocaust still don't generally use a Swastika because it's seen as either a cross or a Hindu symbol, even Hamas would get angry at such a flag


You mean like these guys? https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/up ... 397981.jpg

There are countless images of Hamas militants doing a Nazi salute and using Nazi imagery

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Chess Reloaded
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Postby Chess Reloaded » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:49 am

Cosmic79 wrote:
Chess Reloaded wrote:Middle Easterners who sympathize with Hitler or deny the Holocaust still don't generally use a Swastika because it's seen as either a cross or a Hindu symbol, even Hamas would get angry at such a flag


You mean like these guys? https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/up ... 397981.jpg

There are countless images of Hamas militants doing a Nazi salute and using Nazi imagery

In Zionist newspapers yeah. I'm always impressed at them having photojournalists embedded in Hamas, shows their dedication

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Kumarinadu
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Postby Kumarinadu » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:46 pm

I wanted to support Israel because the Jews have endured so much as a people that them having their own nation after all of it would have been a victory for them. I also wish I could support it in ending militancy in the middle east and being a bastion against that. But it was founded highly unethically and actually made the problem of religious militancy in the middle east worse through their operations. It’s a settler state made irrespective of the wishes of the people already living there, has brutalized them throughout its existence and is serving as the middle eastern wing of the Imperialist West’s foreign policy interests. It should have never been made where it was, and the idea that it should was dreamed up by a fringe that shouldn’t have been served.

In terms of the militancy they’ve served as a rallying point for virtually all Islamic extremists, caused the destruction of secular governments in Arab nations, andmost wars the US has gotten involved in in the region have been for their interests. And this swung popular opinion to the Islamists. If Netanyahu didn’t see Iraq as a threat to the existence of Israel (and if GWB wasn’t president) the regime change wouldn’t have happened and the power vacuum that created successes for ISIS and Al Qaeda wouldn’t have come to pass. The effects of the regime change spilled over to Syria too, and caused what we see with Syria now.

On principle I support the idea of a homeland for the Jewish people, but it should have never been created there. And that it has makes for no easy solution. The No State solution would be great if it was actually feasible and not just in the dreams of utopians. But I think for now it would be best to start with the withdrawal of Israels illegal settlements in the West Bank and a Right of Return for Palestinians.

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Sweitchland
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Postby Sweitchland » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:49 pm

It depends on your political spectrum
If you're Middle-Eastern or East Asian, you tend to oppose Israeli's or people of Jewish minority.
If you're from the West, you tend to support Jewish and Israeli people.
Alot of people are gonna hate me for this but I partly support Israel, after all, they've endured alot and still stand to this day.
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Kumarinadu
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Postby Kumarinadu » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:52 pm

Or financial compensation if the return isn’t workable

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:55 pm

Should it exist...yes it should exist. Do I support the policies, typically no.
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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:47 pm

Cosmic79 wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Weird. That's a magically floating flag that spontaneously crashes when you put a camera on it.

What are we supposed to be seeing, here?


Twitter users defending Nazi Germany's flag, mostly

Looked through the comments, didn't really see that. Mainly just people questioning whether Palestinians really put this big flag up there, which given the reasons above they probably did not.
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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:49 pm

You can't quite call "anti-zionist" a dogwhistle given how many people dislike Israel as well. Nazis might be against Israel because of Jewish people, but a lot of us just hate the country's numerous violations of human rights.
Last edited by Alcala-Cordel on Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:51 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:You can't quite call "anti-zionist" a dogwhistle given how many people dislike Israel as well. Nazis might be against Israel because of Jewish people, but a lot of us just hate the country's numerous violations of human rights.


Case in point, there are anti-Zionist Jews even. There's a really long list of reasons to oppose Israel's existence, anti-Semitism is not the only one.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:51 pm

The whole flag thing is just a red herring to attempt to justify the Israelis position on the Palestinians. Not even worth acknowledging.

Besides, the occupation isn’t much better than what the Nazis did in some places either (depending where it was, it’s even harsher). So there’s some irony.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:53 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:You can't quite call "anti-zionist" a dogwhistle given how many people dislike Israel as well. Nazis might be against Israel because of Jewish people, but a lot of us just hate the country's numerous violations of human rights.


Case in point, there are anti-Zionist Jews even. There's a really long list of reasons to oppose Israel's existence, anti-Semitism is not the only one.


Unfortunately Israel’s existence is set in stone now. At least if we want to avoid further war crimes and ethnic cleansing.

We’re stuck in this mess now. We just need to bend their arm to play nice with their minorities and the Palestinians. Of course that means neutering the Israel lobby.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:57 am

Cosmic79 wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Weird. That's a magically floating flag that spontaneously crashes when you put a camera on it.

What are we supposed to be seeing, here?


Twitter users defending Nazi Germany's flag, mostly


I didn't see that at all.

IN fact, even if the flag thing is real and genuine, without CONTEXT it is meaningless.

Who is supposed to have magically floated this flag? And why?
WASSER IST LEBEN

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:49 pm

Salus Maior wrote:Besides, the occupation isn’t much better than what the Nazis did in some places either (depending where it was, it’s even harsher). So there’s some irony.

No. It's not even close.
Gulag this. Siberia that. No. When I seize power in a coup, people who were ugly to other people will be sent to a pony farm to feed small horses apples and sugar cubes as penance for their crimes against wholesomeness.
This too shall pass.

I've been contemplating the next season of my life for a few weeks now. I could worry about unfulfilling good byes and paltry words for a hundred more weeks, but I suppose this will suffice. If your eyes should happen upon this signature, I pray that you will find love, happiness, and righteousness with each morning that you rise and each evening that you sleep, secure in the knowledge that you are deeply worthy of such wondrous and beauteous things.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:51 pm

Fahran wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:Besides, the occupation isn’t much better than what the Nazis did in some places either (depending where it was, it’s even harsher). So there’s some irony.

No. It's not even close.


Idk anon, I feel like Salus is largely correct when it comes to western and northern Europe. Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway etc had pretty lax occupations and they certainly weren't being pushed off their land by a colonial authority.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:13 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Idk anon, I feel like Salus is largely correct when it comes to western and northern Europe. Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway etc had pretty lax occupations and they certainly weren't being pushed off their land by a colonial authority.

They still carried out the Holocaust in Denmark and the Netherlands. There were also collective reprisals against resistance cells and civilians, not to mention the initial campaigns to take those polities. Mind you, I don't think Israel's conduct in the West Bank is good in any way, shape, or form, but it's not quite Nazi levels of bad. Hence why Nazi comparisons, which are usually designed to annoy Zionists more than anything else, tend to fall flat. Because, short of carrying out a genocide, you're not comparable to a Nazi most of the time.
Gulag this. Siberia that. No. When I seize power in a coup, people who were ugly to other people will be sent to a pony farm to feed small horses apples and sugar cubes as penance for their crimes against wholesomeness.
This too shall pass.

I've been contemplating the next season of my life for a few weeks now. I could worry about unfulfilling good byes and paltry words for a hundred more weeks, but I suppose this will suffice. If your eyes should happen upon this signature, I pray that you will find love, happiness, and righteousness with each morning that you rise and each evening that you sleep, secure in the knowledge that you are deeply worthy of such wondrous and beauteous things.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:17 pm

Fahran wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Idk anon, I feel like Salus is largely correct when it comes to western and northern Europe. Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway etc had pretty lax occupations and they certainly weren't being pushed off their land by a colonial authority.

They still carried out the Holocaust in Denmark and the Netherlands.There were also collective reprisals against resistance cells and civilians, not to mention the initial campaigns to take those polities. Mind you, I don't think Israel's conduct in the West Bank is good in any way, shape, or form, but it's not quite Nazi levels of bad. Hence why Nazi comparisons, which are usually designed to annoy Zionists more than anything else, tend to fall flat. Because, short of carrying out a genocide, you're not comparable to a Nazi most of the time.


How many civilians died the last time Israel started shelling the Palestinians again?
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:34 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Fahran wrote:They still carried out the Holocaust in Denmark and the Netherlands.There were also collective reprisals against resistance cells and civilians, not to mention the initial campaigns to take those polities. Mind you, I don't think Israel's conduct in the West Bank is good in any way, shape, or form, but it's not quite Nazi levels of bad. Hence why Nazi comparisons, which are usually designed to annoy Zionists more than anything else, tend to fall flat. Because, short of carrying out a genocide, you're not comparable to a Nazi most of the time.


How many civilians died the last time Israel started shelling the Palestinians again?


About 300 dead in total (the majority civilian afaik), many thousands injured and over 70,000 people displaced and driven from their homes.

So, yeah, pretty fucking bad.
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:59 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Fahran wrote:They still carried out the Holocaust in Denmark and the Netherlands.There were also collective reprisals against resistance cells and civilians, not to mention the initial campaigns to take those polities. Mind you, I don't think Israel's conduct in the West Bank is good in any way, shape, or form, but it's not quite Nazi levels of bad. Hence why Nazi comparisons, which are usually designed to annoy Zionists more than anything else, tend to fall flat. Because, short of carrying out a genocide, you're not comparable to a Nazi most of the time.


How many civilians died the last time Israel started shelling the Palestinians again?

Five on Sunday.

Edit: Misread. Not from shelling.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:22 pm

Salus Maior wrote:How many civilians died the last time Israel started shelling the Palestinians again?

Civilians dying due to a war fought in one of the most densely populated regions of the world is not comparable to genocide or deliberate summary executions of civilians - both of which happened even in places like the Netherlands and Denmark under Nazi occupation. Never mind that Gaza isn't under occupation at the moment.

And there's no good Israeli response to Hamas launching enough incendiary devices and bombs across the border that it depletes their aerial defense system.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gulag this. Siberia that. No. When I seize power in a coup, people who were ugly to other people will be sent to a pony farm to feed small horses apples and sugar cubes as penance for their crimes against wholesomeness.
This too shall pass.

I've been contemplating the next season of my life for a few weeks now. I could worry about unfulfilling good byes and paltry words for a hundred more weeks, but I suppose this will suffice. If your eyes should happen upon this signature, I pray that you will find love, happiness, and righteousness with each morning that you rise and each evening that you sleep, secure in the knowledge that you are deeply worthy of such wondrous and beauteous things.

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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:25 pm

Fahran wrote:Never mind that Gaza isn't under occupation at the moment.

if you're already on the WW2 analogy train
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:30 pm


Are you aware of how many people died at Leningrad? 1,017,881 Soviets were killed, captured, or went missing. In the span of two years. Perhaps 100,000 Arabs have been killed in all of conflicts with Israel over the last century, and the majority of those were military personnel or militants. You're comparing very unlike things to make Israel seem similar to the Nazis when they really aren't.

You'd have an easier time comparing them to the Serbs, Croats, Albanians, Bosnians, Indians, or Pakistanis. Heck, you could probably even compare them to the Arabs. Because those comparisons are actually somewhat accurate.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gulag this. Siberia that. No. When I seize power in a coup, people who were ugly to other people will be sent to a pony farm to feed small horses apples and sugar cubes as penance for their crimes against wholesomeness.
This too shall pass.

I've been contemplating the next season of my life for a few weeks now. I could worry about unfulfilling good byes and paltry words for a hundred more weeks, but I suppose this will suffice. If your eyes should happen upon this signature, I pray that you will find love, happiness, and righteousness with each morning that you rise and each evening that you sleep, secure in the knowledge that you are deeply worthy of such wondrous and beauteous things.

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