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Should the State of Israel have a right to exist?

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:49 am

Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:
Greater Liyue wrote:Yes, Israel has a right to exist.

Every nation has a right to exist.

And the large diaspora does not invalidate their claim. Armenia exists but more Armenians live abroad than in Armenia. Both Jews and Armenians were subjected to massive genocides in the last century. So why not let people return to their native lands if they choose?

And if you don't feel comfortable with all of their decisions politically, remember that politics and people are not the same.

(I think Israel is overall a very good nation, but no nation is perfect. America and South Korea are great too, but they also have some issues.)

Except the Armenians have had a continuous, unbroken presence in present-day Armenia for who-knows-how many centuries. But should former majority Armenian lands in Eastern Anatolia be given to Armenia? Have the now majority Turkish residents established themselves for long enough that the Armenian claim is extinguished? I'm not sure, and that's only a hundred years old. The Jewish claim, no matter how heartfelt, was nearly two millennia old by the time of the establishment of Israel. Does that old of a claim count?
The expansionist policy of Armenia and the claim of right of the Israeli lands are not the same thing. because Israel is just a state trying to protect its own lands and it has a right in these lands. Those who equate the Armenian and Israeli causes are Israelphobic people. Israel follows a modernizing policy, not an expansionist, history has shown us this lesson. I trust the state of Israel more than I trust Palestine.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:11 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:Except the Armenians have had a continuous, unbroken presence in present-day Armenia for who-knows-how many centuries. But should former majority Armenian lands in Eastern Anatolia be given to Armenia? Have the now majority Turkish residents established themselves for long enough that the Armenian claim is extinguished? I'm not sure, and that's only a hundred years old. The Jewish claim, no matter how heartfelt, was nearly two millennia old by the time of the establishment of Israel. Does that old of a claim count?
The expansionist policy of Armenia and the claim of right of the Israeli lands are not the same thing. because Israel is just a state trying to protect its own lands and it has a right in these lands. Those who equate the Armenian and Israeli causes are Israelphobic people. Israel follows a modernizing policy, not an expansionist, history has shown us this lesson. I trust the state of Israel more than I trust Palestine.
what about the bit where settlers go into the west bank to claim additional turf
Or the bit where Israeli straight up took a piece of Syria with no official transfer of the territory
That's kinda expansionist
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Kahvran
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Postby Kahvran » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:14 am

To begin with, the lands of Palestine was inhabited by people (Palestinians) who have been living for more than a millennium. Then suddenly you tell them to "get out" because "it is our promised land"? What an asshole, neo-colonialist take.

They, the Settlers and the British didn't even give a chance for the Palestinian people to negotiate, they just blindly accommodate the Settlers and drive Palestinians out. Of course, this creates resentments amongst the Palestinians.

Honestly the British and the Allies could just create a compromise of making a Lebanon-esque, secular country, but they went full segregation anyways. Not to mention how the Israelis treated Palestinians from then until now. It was a big PR disaster since the beginning.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:49 pm

Kubra wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:The expansionist policy of Armenia and the claim of right of the Israeli lands are not the same thing. because Israel is just a state trying to protect its own lands and it has a right in these lands. Those who equate the Armenian and Israeli causes are Israelphobic people. Israel follows a modernizing policy, not an expansionist, history has shown us this lesson. I trust the state of Israel more than I trust Palestine.
what about the bit where settlers go into the west bank to claim additional turf
Or the bit where Israeli straight up took a piece of Syria with no official transfer of the territory
That's kinda expansionist
Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan declared that Hocalı Massacre was a revenge by Armenian forces. Now my question is, do you think the Golan Heights has been taken by Israel for revenge on the Arabs ? When I go to Armenia, why do all the cities seem like old soviet villages to me, but Israeli cities are in the style of European Union countries. Palestine and Israel must understand that the two-state solution is a real solution, put aside your religions and cultures and turn to secularism as two nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:27 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Kubra wrote: what about the bit where settlers go into the west bank to claim additional turf
Or the bit where Israeli straight up took a piece of Syria with no official transfer of the territory
That's kinda expansionist
Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan declared that Hocalı Massacre was a revenge by Armenian forces. Now my question is, do you think the Golan Heights has been taken by Israel for revenge on the Arabs ? When I go to Armenia, why do all the cities seem like old soviet villages to me, but Israeli cities are in the style of European Union countries. Palestine and Israel must understand that the two-state solution is a real solution, put aside your religions and cultures and turn to secularism as two nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
this is not a denial of Israel being, you know, expansionist. Rather, it seems you're now moving to justify expansionism instead.
Buddy, go to Azerbaijan and you'll see plenty of old Soviet infrastructure. Fun fact: they were both the part of the Soviet Union.
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Postby Duvniask » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:37 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote: When I go to Armenia, why do all the cities seem like old soviet villages to me, but Israeli cities are in the style of European Union countries.

Hakinda discovers Armenia was part of the Soviet Union. It's almost like they used the same mass housing policies as the rest of the USSR. Who would have thunk!
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:36 am

Kubra wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan declared that Hocalı Massacre was a revenge by Armenian forces. Now my question is, do you think the Golan Heights has been taken by Israel for revenge on the Arabs ? When I go to Armenia, why do all the cities seem like old soviet villages to me, but Israeli cities are in the style of European Union countries. Palestine and Israel must understand that the two-state solution is a real solution, put aside your religions and cultures and turn to secularism as two nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
this is not a denial of Israel being, you know, expansionist. Rather, it seems you're now moving to justify expansionism instead.
Buddy, go to Azerbaijan and you'll see plenty of old Soviet infrastructure. Fun fact: they were both the part of the Soviet Union.
First of all, I never discriminate between race and religion, but there are serious socioeconomic differences between other Arab republics and the State of Israel. I feel freer on the land of Israel. Yes, I know, but our point is to say that there are differences between the expansionist policy of armenia and the state of Israel. Do you think Israel wants to take revenge on the Arabs ? Palestinian and Israeli secular people must solve the Jerusalem problem at its root. Secular culture against the Middle East ! Forest areas with trees instead of wailing wall and Masjid al-Aqsa.
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Postby Kubra » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:16 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Kubra wrote: this is not a denial of Israel being, you know, expansionist. Rather, it seems you're now moving to justify expansionism instead.
Buddy, go to Azerbaijan and you'll see plenty of old Soviet infrastructure. Fun fact: they were both the part of the Soviet Union.
First of all, I never discriminate between race and religion, but there are serious socioeconomic differences between other Arab republics and the State of Israel. I feel freer on the land of Israel. Yes, I know, but our point is to say that there are differences between the expansionist policy of armenia and the state of Israel. Do you think Israel wants to take revenge on the Arabs ? Palestinian and Israeli secular people must solve the Jerusalem problem at its root. Secular culture against the Middle East ! Forest areas with trees instead of wailing wall and Masjid al-Aqsa.
but it is expansionist, right?
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Postby Fahran » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 am

Kahvran wrote:To begin with, the lands of Palestine was inhabited by people (Palestinians) who have been living for more than a millennium.

The genesis of the Palestinians as a distinct national grouping began in earnest only after the formation of Israel, and only really came into its own in the 1970s. Beyond that, Palestine tended to be a constituent part of various Syrian polities and larger empires that were often culturally and religiously diverse. While modern Palestinians, who have been Arabized and tend to identify as Arabs, are descendants of Canaanites in the same way that Jews and the Lebanese Arabs are... the way you went about explaining that is false on multiple levels.

Kahvran wrote:Then suddenly you tell them to "get out" because "it is our promised land"? What an asshole, neo-colonialist take.

"If you refuse to be subjugated, persecuted, and erased by small abuses and periodic pogroms, you're an asshole, a neo-colonialist, and want Arab children to die." Tell it to the Kurds and Amazigh. A nation-state is a necessity to stave off persecution, and there's no requirement to make apologies for it to people who have no intention of ever getting that point despite that they, more or less, make it all the time.

Kahvran wrote:They, the Settlers and the British didn't even give a chance for the Palestinian people to negotiate, they just blindly accommodate the Settlers and drive Palestinians out. Of course, this creates resentments amongst the Palestinians.

The Arabs, not Palestinians at this point, didn't want to negotiate. And it's ahistorical to suppose they would have accepted any partition. Additionally, Jews have been making aliyah for millennia and have been a persistent minority population in the region. The Ottomans even encouraged this en masse.

Kahvran wrote:Honestly the British and the Allies could just create a compromise of making a Lebanon-esque, secular country, but they went full segregation anyways. Not to mention how the Israelis treated Palestinians from then until now. It was a big PR disaster since the beginning.

So force a solution that neither side wanted at the time to be anti-imperialist?
Last edited by Fahran on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:57 am

Fahran wrote:The Arabs, not Palestinians at this point, didn't want to negotiate.


You know that's a massive oversimplification of such extraordinary magnitude as to be basically completely false.

Partition was forced on the local Arab population despite them saying they explicitly did not want it. That's not a 'refusal to negotiate', that's being forced off your land.

It was bad when the US did it to natives, it's bad when anyone else does it, too.
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Postby Echinasty-Slugglut » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:06 am

Koletsia wrote:I pose this question because as an anachronistic imperialist experiment it seems very strange that we allow them to slaughter the native inhabitants like the Israelites slaughtered the Canaanites thousands of years ago just so some whites from Europe can role play as ancient people. Seems kind of strange to me. What do you think?


Biased OP

Anachronistic? It´s a part of the world with 10,000 years of settled history. That makes anything over there a little anachronistic. Policy should be based on the here and now. That includes millions of Jewish Israelis who want to live there.

Imperialist? Nope. Militarist maybe.

Experiment: not after decades of being there. Not anymore.

Slaughter native inhabitants? I agree that there is an apartheid going on. But I have not yet heard that Israel is doing a Holocaust to the Palestineans.

The archeology of the region suggests that the Israelis merged with the Canaanites. Since Hebrew is basically Canaanite with some loanwords and vowel shifts, I´m enclined to agree.

Those "whites from Europe" are the descendants of people displaced from the very country, by force, in 70 A.D. Modern Israelis aren´t "role-playing" any more than for example Liberians are role-playing as black Africans.

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Postby Fahran » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:09 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:You know that's a massive oversimplification of such extraordinary magnitude as to be basically completely false.

Except it's not.

Grave_n_idle wrote:Partition was forced on the local Arab population despite them saying they explicitly did not want it. That's not a 'refusal to negotiate', that's being forced off your land.

I think you're overlooking the concerted effort made by Arab leaders to force the Jews into the sea. Even today, plenty of activists want Israel completely destroyed and have alluded to this attempt to drive the Jews into the sea. It was largely a political reality that this was the goal and that compromise was off the table by 1947.

Grave_n_idle wrote:It was bad when the US did it to natives, it's bad when anyone else does it, too.

I didn't say it wasn't.
Last edited by Fahran on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I've been contemplating the next season of my life for a few weeks now. I could worry about unfulfilling good byes and paltry words for a hundred more weeks, but I suppose this will suffice. If your eyes should happen upon this signature, I pray that you will find love, happiness, and righteousness with each morning that you rise and each evening that you sleep, secure in the knowledge that you are deeply worthy of such wondrous and beauteous things.

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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:11 am

Fahran wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:You know that's a massive oversimplification of such extraordinary magnitude as to be basically completely false.

Except it's not.


I was being charitable. I was suggesting you were just oversimplifying to an unhelpful level.

We both know what you said was wrong.

Fahran wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:Partition was forced on the local Arab population despite them saying they explicitly did not want it. That's not a 'refusal to negotiate', that's being forced off your land.

I think you're overlooking the concerted effort made by Arab leaders to force the Jews into the sea.


I'm not overlooking it at all. It has nothing to do with the point I made.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:19 am

Kubra wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:First of all, I never discriminate between race and religion, but there are serious socioeconomic differences between other Arab republics and the State of Israel. I feel freer on the land of Israel. Yes, I know, but our point is to say that there are differences between the expansionist policy of armenia and the state of Israel. Do you think Israel wants to take revenge on the Arabs ? Palestinian and Israeli secular people must solve the Jerusalem problem at its root. Secular culture against the Middle East ! Forest areas with trees instead of wailing wall and Masjid al-Aqsa.
but it is expansionist, right?
It cannot be kept side by side with Armenia expansionism or the US occupation.As a matter of fact, the aim of those who attack Israel is antisemitic thoughts, you can criticize Israel, but you cannot ignore Israel!
Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Kubra » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:20 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Kubra wrote: but it is expansionist, right?
It cannot be kept side by side with Armenia expansionism or the US occupation.
ok, what makes some imperialisms better than others?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:24 am

Kubra wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:It cannot be kept side by side with Armenia expansionism or the US occupation.
ok, what makes some imperialisms better than others?


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Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:29 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Kubra wrote: ok, what makes some imperialisms better than others?


Speaking Turkish.

And being from a Turkic ethnic group.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:41 am

Kubra wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:It cannot be kept side by side with Armenia expansionism or the US occupation.
ok, what makes some imperialisms better than others?
What sets it apart is the Six Day War. I don't think wars are really true, but it's a fact. Those who see Israel as the same as the USA and Armenia in foreign policy are of Antisemitism. Why can't I feel safe and free in Palestine and other Arab countries ? When you find the answer to this, you will see who is more guilty.
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Postby Aeisonia » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:45 am

Land only belongs to those who have the means and will to defend it. If Israel can defend their land, then they should exist.
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:46 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Those who see Israel as the same as the USA and Armenia in foreign policy are of Antisemitism.


That's garbage.

Being critical of Israel's policy is not antisemitism. Israel has been an illegal occupying power for more than half a century. Israel's policy deserves criticism.
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:47 am

Aeisonia wrote:Land only belongs to those who have the means and will to defend it. If Israel can defend their land, then they should exist.


Not a precedent we really want people to be embracing, to be honest.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:48 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Those who see Israel as the same as the USA and Armenia in foreign policy are of Antisemitism.


That's garbage.

Being critical of Israel's policy is not antisemitism. Israel has been an illegal occupying power for more than half a century. Israel's policy deserves criticism.
I am definitely not against criticism, but there is a state in the land of Israel, and the Arab countries do not want to recognize Israel with violence.
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:03 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
That's garbage.

Being critical of Israel's policy is not antisemitism. Israel has been an illegal occupying power for more than half a century. Israel's policy deserves criticism.
I am definitely not against criticism, but there is a state in the land of Israel, and the Arab countries do not want to recognize Israel with violence.


Israel was a forced partition, overriding the will of the people and forcing them from their land. Why would people that were forced from their land, and that are now ruled over by an occupying power want to 'recognize' Israel?

Don't you think occupying powers SHOULD be opposed?
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Postby Aeisonia » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:12 am

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Aeisonia wrote:Land only belongs to those who have the means and will to defend it. If Israel can defend their land, then they should exist.


Not a precedent we really want people to be embracing, to be honest.

If we don't want to embrace it, then debating whether or not countries currently deserve to exist is pointless.
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**Obviously, this nation does not represent my views.**


"Dissent? Crushed. Human Rights? Never existed. Opposing countries? Obliterated. Godmodders? Hung from a streetlamp. Minorites? Forced to the dig their own graves and shot. Your sole purpose in life? Spend money, procreate, and die. Hotel? Trivago." -Neos Realm


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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:20 am

Aeisonia wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Not a precedent we really want people to be embracing, to be honest.

If we don't want to embrace it, then debating whether or not countries currently deserve to exist is pointless.


If we don't want to embrace the concept of conquest as legitimate expansion in the 21st century world, there's no point debating whether a historical occupying power should exist?
WASSER IST LEBEN

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