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Should the State of Israel have a right to exist?

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Helidan
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Postby Helidan » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:35 am

Algebra and Geometry wrote:
Deacarsia wrote:Apparently so, if you believe this nonsense.

It's rightfully Israel's ancestral land , these Palestinian s are recent immigrants from Iraq or Jordan , they settled there barely a few hundred years ago.

So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:41 am

Helidan wrote:
Algebra and Geometry wrote:It's rightfully Israel's ancestral land , these Palestinian s are recent immigrants from Iraq or Jordan , they settled there barely a few hundred years ago.

So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.

Hand over your collective asses and I won't have to salt your land.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:03 am

Risottia wrote:
Helidan wrote:So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.

Hand over your collective asses and I won't have to salt your land.


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Modelna
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Postby Modelna » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:09 am

In the end of the day, it does not matter. You could find 100 reasons why any county should not exist. It's extremely hard to get any sort of objective answer to this question.

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Haganham
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Haganham » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:01 am

Helidan wrote:
Algebra and Geometry wrote:It's rightfully Israel's ancestral land , these Palestinian s are recent immigrants from Iraq or Jordan , they settled there barely a few hundred years ago.

So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.

Just because Rome is in Italy doesn't mean Italy is Rome. We fought a war about this.

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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:37 am

Kubra wrote:
Great Algerstonia wrote:Israel as a whole is a myth. The nation, nor the territory it is on, does not exist. It is in reality part of the Red Sea, which is named after the communist and not Islamist state of Commi Arabia, which is named after the Union of Soviet Communist Republics, which contrary to popular belief still exists and is named "USCR", not "USSR".
Wrong: it does exist, but is part of the red sea. Everyone lives underwater.


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Algebra and Geometry
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Postby Algebra and Geometry » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:43 am

Mercatus wrote:
Kubra wrote: Wrong: it does exist, but is part of the red sea. Everyone lives underwater.


Israelantis.

We have some History Channel reps to call.

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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:48 am

Helidan wrote:
Algebra and Geometry wrote:It's rightfully Israel's ancestral land , these Palestinian s are recent immigrants from Iraq or Jordan , they settled there barely a few hundred years ago.

So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.

Yes.

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Algebra and Geometry
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Postby Algebra and Geometry » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:21 pm

Resilient Acceleration wrote:
Helidan wrote:So by this logic, most of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is rightful Italian clay.

Yes.

hey I agree with that.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:07 pm

Algebra and Geometry wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:Yes.

hey I agree with that.


Despite the Romans stealing all that land from the people who were already living there.
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TomKirk
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Postby TomKirk » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:51 am

Diahon wrote:
Koletsia wrote:
This logic would literally give any peoples a right to claim land that they historically lived in regardless of how they got there and regardless of how far distant in time it was.

Would you feel better if the people who decided to go to Palestine instead decamped in Kenya? Or settled in Madagascar? Or chose Seward in Alaska?

Point is, they are refugees; Palestine was just the piece of land with the strongest emotional attachment at the time, things being what they were (six million dead, continental Europe a smoldering ruin, sHitler brained and roasted...).

Jewish refugees had been fleeing pogroms back to the old homeland since the late 19th century: the story did not start in the 1940s.
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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:35 pm

Yes, the people who live there want it to exist and have the ability to enforce their sovereignty.
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Elanore
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Postby Elanore » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:40 pm

Personally I don't think so because it's stolen/conquered land. Since the Palestine/Israel issue is so complicated, the only compromise is a 2-state solution....

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The Nation of The Nines
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Postby The Nation of The Nines » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:44 pm

Yes, it has the right to exist. Much like how Rome was real so is Israel is real and has a long history being conquered by other nations.

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Elanore
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Postby Elanore » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:50 pm

The Nation of The Nines wrote:Yes, it has the right to exist. Much like how Rome was real so is Israel is real and has a long history being conquered by other nations.

excpet historically it was always Palestine, not Israel. Yes, there was a portion of it called the Kingdom of Israel, but it did not encompass all of Palestine.

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The Land of the Ephyral
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Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:53 pm

It doesn't really matter. If they can enforce their claim, they'll continue to do so.

Every people have stolen land. Every people have had land stolen. No one is a unique victim or perpetrator of this. Argue that as the basis of why one state shouldn't exist and you won't be able to argue why any of them should.
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Conservative Republic Of Huang
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Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:03 pm

Diahon wrote:
Koletsia wrote:
This logic would literally give any peoples a right to claim land that they historically lived in regardless of how they got there and regardless of how far distant in time it was.

Would you feel better if the people who decided to go to Palestine instead decamped in Kenya? Or settled in Madagascar? Or chose Seward in Alaska?

Point is, they are refugees; Palestine was just the piece of land with the strongest emotional attachment at the time, things being what they were (six million dead, continental Europe a smoldering ruin, sHitler brained and roasted...).

The Holocaust was unfortunate, but how did the Holocaust extinguish the claims of Palestinians to their land? The rights of refugees do not encompass a right to usurp the sovereignty of the native peoples and establish a system of sociopolitical dominance over them that pushes them out from the national identity of the state and forces them to be second-class citizens.
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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:16 pm

Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:
Diahon wrote:Would you feel better if the people who decided to go to Palestine instead decamped in Kenya? Or settled in Madagascar? Or chose Seward in Alaska?

Point is, they are refugees; Palestine was just the piece of land with the strongest emotional attachment at the time, things being what they were (six million dead, continental Europe a smoldering ruin, sHitler brained and roasted...).

The Holocaust was unfortunate, but how did the Holocaust extinguish the claims of Palestinians to their land? The rights of refugees do not encompass a right to usurp the sovereignty of the native peoples and establish a system of sociopolitical dominance over them that pushes them out from the national identity of the state and forces them to be second-class citizens.

where did i say that? an amicable settlement could've reached, where jewish and palestinian would've shared the land and a scrupulously egalitarian secularism kept

instead, this

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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:21 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:It doesn't really matter. If they can enforce their claim, they'll continue to do so.

Every people have stolen land. Every people have had land stolen. No one is a unique victim or perpetrator of this. Argue that as the basis of why one state shouldn't exist and you won't be able to argue why any of them should.


I think the problem is that we're not talking about ancient history - we're talking about a nation literally claiming ownership of a piece of land from the people living there - during the lifespans of people still living.

And I'm honestly not sure we should be using rights of conquest as an argument in the 21st century. If for no other reason than that's a thorny precedent to be setting.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:50 pm

Yes.

And I will not elaborate. I'm tired of having to justify the Jewish right to national self-determination ad nauseam. We should mix it up a bit. Let's discuss discuss the right of Kazakhstan, Venezuela, Syria, Portugal, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Pakistan, or Costa Rica to exist instead. It'll be fresher, and the arguments'll pretty much be the same.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Countesia
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Postby Countesia » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:56 pm

I firmly believe in the UN Partition Plan for Israel Except instead of Jerusalem being an independent international city, that it become a dual sovereignty city that both nations house their respective parliaments in.

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Helidan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Helidan » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:08 pm

Due simply to the fact that Palestine is considered a holy land by the three major Abrahamic religions, and the fact that several holy wars have been fought over it, Israel should not exist, but rather be turned into a UN governed territory. This will, most likely, satisfy no one and piss off everyone, but it's better than an ethnostate.
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Conservative Republic Of Huang
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Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:19 pm

Diahon wrote:
Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:The Holocaust was unfortunate, but how did the Holocaust extinguish the claims of Palestinians to their land? The rights of refugees do not encompass a right to usurp the sovereignty of the native peoples and establish a system of sociopolitical dominance over them that pushes them out from the national identity of the state and forces them to be second-class citizens.

where did i say that? an amicable settlement could've reached, where jewish and palestinian would've shared the land and a scrupulously egalitarian secularism kept

instead, this

Well, the unfortunate fact is, it is a zero-sum game, and the Holocaust does not extinguish any of the rights to the Palestinians. On one hand, the Jews should have a homeland, but on the other hand, considering geopolitical reality, that inevitably means pushing someone else off their land.
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Krasny-Volny
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:19 pm

Koletsia wrote:I pose this question because as an anachronistic imperialist experiment it seems very strange that we allow them to slaughter the native inhabitants like the Israelites slaughtered the Canaanites thousands of years ago just so some whites from Europe can role play as ancient people. Seems kind of strange to me. What do you think?


This is not the hot take you think it is. I’ve been hearing the same emotive talking points all my life about Israel. They’re imperialist European colonizers who are guilty of genocide and are not real ancient Hebrews, just like fantasizing they are as they genocide their way through scores of innocent defenseless Arab Palestinians.

I spent some time in Israel back in 2014, saw a chunk of the West Bank too. Truth is, things aren’t that black and white. Nothing in this world is. Absolutes are great for political propaganda and feeling good but don’t measure up to reality. The reality is this: Israel is a fairly normal country like any other in the world, albeit with its own unique social problems. People there aren’t caricatures, they’re just like you and me: worried about security, worried about their jobs, worried about paying their bills, worried about the paint jobs on their cars, worried about their relationships. They listen to the same pop songs we do and wear the same crappy band T-shirts. There are poor Nordic looking Russian Jews and rich Palestinians. There are extremists on both sides, yes. There are also drug dealers, mob bosses, corrupt politicians, greedy bankers, and crooked, evil people of every stripe just like in every other nation in the world that is imperfect (and that is all of them).

I guess what I’m trying to say is Israel is like any other country in the world, and it isn’t going anywhere. And maybe you should try talking to some Israeli Jews and getting their side of the story before being so quick to pronounce your righteous judgment from atop your high horse.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:23 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Koletsia wrote:I pose this question because as an anachronistic imperialist experiment it seems very strange that we allow them to slaughter the native inhabitants like the Israelites slaughtered the Canaanites thousands of years ago just so some whites from Europe can role play as ancient people. Seems kind of strange to me. What do you think?


This is not the hot take you think it is. I’ve been hearing the same emotive talking points all my life about Israel. They’re imperialist European colonizers who are guilty of genocide and are not real ancient Hebrews, just like fantasizing they are as they genocide their way through scores of innocent defenseless Arab Palestinians.

I spent some time in Israel back in 2014, saw a chunk of the West Bank too. Truth is, things aren’t that black and white. Nothing in this world is. Absolutes are great for political propaganda and feeling good but don’t measure up to reality. The reality is this: Israel is a fairly normal country like any other in the world, albeit with its own unique social problems. People there aren’t caricatures, they’re just like you and me: worried about security, worried about their jobs, worried about paying their bills, worried about the paint jobs on their cars, worried about their relationships. They listen to the same pop songs we do and wear the same crappy band T-shirts. There are poor Nordic looking Russian Jews and rich Palestinians. There are extremists on both sides, yes. There are also drug dealers, mob bosses, corrupt politicians, greedy bankers, and crooked, evil people of every stripe just like in every other nation in the world that is imperfect (and that is all of them).

I guess what I’m trying to say is Israel is like any other country in the world, and it isn’t going anywhere. And maybe you should try talking to some Israeli Jews and getting their side of the story before being so quick to pronounce your righteous judgment from atop your high horse.


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