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Qualified to be President?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

In an ideal world, which of these qualifications would matter most?

university education
3
4%
university education in particular fields
6
7%
work experience as an ordinary person
8
10%
management experience
7
8%
experience as an elected official
17
20%
public service roles
9
11%
NGO experience
3
4%
participation in a debate forum attached to a game made to sell books
9
11%
a Twitter account
4
5%
proof they pay taxes
18
21%
 
Total votes : 84

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Forsher
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Qualified to be President?

Postby Forsher » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:15 pm

I feel like the discussion of the qualifications of presidential candidates of the past is getting buried in the American Politics thread, so let's give it its own thread. (I think you can get most of the posts by following this post chain backwards.)

One of the numerous flaws of the presidential system, is that it requires electing people that, outside of extraordinary circumstances, can't be said to have had any relevant experience. This is true whether you're looking at mayors, governors or presidents. Any system which has a direct election for the Big Boss at that level of government inherently shares this flaw.

Now, you might look at that and say (for the American context, anyway), "Well, okay, the natural progression is to be a mayor, then level up to deal with more people and higher stakes and become a governor, and then you can say 'I've done this job twice before and I know what it's like to experience a huge jump in responsibility' and therefore it is possible to obtain relevant experience". The thing is, I don't think you can draw that kind of comparison. The relationships between all different political actors are just wholly different whether you're a mayor, governor or president, even if it's possible to have a similar links between councils and mayors as between governors/presidents and state/federal houses.

(In the Westminster system, the prime minister is first among equals. And, also, is the leader of the political party and is expected to do largely the same things whether in or out of government, aside from the question of running the country. Which, of course, is actually something they theoretically do in the sense that it's parliament, not the government, that has the power. Governments matter only insofar as they're able to control parliament; so parliamentary experience is, in a very real way, government experience. You may quibble about this, too, of course. I'm just including it here so you can see how I see the difference.)

Another objection that I could see someone making is "But what about the vice president?" Well, now, I would've suggested this myself once upon a time. But then I watched a movie trailer.

I'm sure there are great many other objections one could make (e.g. White House Chief of Staff) but I'd rather focus the question on what kind of evidence really would be worth looking at to get an idea of whether someone is qualified to be (in particular, the US) president. A degree in political science? public policy? economics? all three? management? (yes, there are degrees in management) public administration? How about a military background? Corporate experience? Being a judge?

(For reference, here's a table of most of the public offices held by the winners and runners up of every US presidential election.)

To my mind, in general sense, you'd want a presidential system candidate to have:

  • established experience at winning an election as an incumbent with a political record
  • experience at the same level of government as a public actor (so, not a lobbyist)
  • experience within the same region of government (this is less relevant for national presidents than for governors or mayors)
  • experience as an elected public official
  • leadership experience in public service
  • all other experience in public service

And that would be a hierarchy, with the top being the most important.

So, what say ye, NSG?
Last edited by Forsher on Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Imperium Empires
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Postby The Imperium Empires » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:19 pm

I hardly believe a university degree should determine who is qualified for the presidency, some presidents came from poor backgrounds and those of poor backgrounds often have greater difficulty getting university degrees.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:33 pm

I don't know about America, but in a country that I don't want to name, grocers who do not speak English and do not have a university degree should not be prime minister. What would it be like if America was governed by a parliamentary system ?
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:40 pm

The Imperium Empires wrote:I hardly believe a university degree should determine who is qualified for the presidency, some presidents came from poor backgrounds and those of poor backgrounds often have greater difficulty getting university degrees.


Indeed.

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I ran into her years later. Asked her how Stanford went and she said she dropped out. I was surprised and asked why. She said you would be surprised how many stupid people with large bank accounts go there.
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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:00 pm

judging by the above poll, donald trump would surely qualify by at least six of the metrics mentioned, at least at the time of his first candidacy, and yet he's an absolute mass-murdering abyss in the shape of a man, so i'd think those arent especially discriminatory metrics at all

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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:17 pm

I'm qualified. Should I submit my resume as a PDF or as a .Docx? Additionally, do y'all need a cover letter or am I kinda good there?

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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:25 pm

Major-Tom wrote:I'm qualified. Should I submit my resume as a PDF or as a .Docx? Additionally, do y'all need a cover letter or am I kinda good there?


scratch that, i've changed my mind

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:38 pm

Diahon wrote:judging by the above poll, donald trump would surely qualify by at least six of the metrics mentioned, at least at the time of his first candidacy, and yet he's an absolute mass-murdering abyss in the shape of a man, so i'd think those arent especially discriminatory metrics at all


Lincoln and Obama are some of the least qualified presidents the US has ever had in terms of public service roles. I think most people would consider them generally good presidents.

Image


In terms of Trump and this thread's poll:

  • not a known member of NSG or similar
  • no public service roles
  • not a known tax payer
  • no experience as an elected official

Total weighting = 4+6+2+3 = 15

It's unclear if he ever worked as an ordinary person:

While in college, Trump began his real estate career at his father's company,[3] Elizabeth Trump and Son,[4] which focused on middle-class rental housing in the New York City boroughs of Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island. One of Trump's first projects was the attempted turnaround of the troubled Swifton Village apartment complex in Cincinnati, Ohio, which his father, Fred Trump, had purchased at foreclosure for $5.7 million in 1962, equivalent to $46 million in 2017.[5] Fred and Donald Trump became involved in the project. By the time Trump graduated from college in 1968, he was receiving the 2019 equivalent of $1,000,000 a year in untaxed gifts from his father.[6] At age 23, he made an unsuccessful commercial foray into show business, investing $70,000 to become co-producer of the 1970 Broadway comedy Paris Is Out![7]


However, we can say he was:

  • university educated
  • (in the sense of the fields I mentioned) university educated in particular fields (economics)
  • experienced in management
  • a Twitter user
  • the owner of an NGO (this is my bad; I meant working for or volunteering in the sector, not running one, but how is anyone meant to know this?)

Which has a weighting of 23 - 2 -15 = 6.

So, like, most respondents think that Trump lacked their most important qualification from that list. Of course, the list is just a bit of fun.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:39 pm

Frankly I wouldn't mind if they had a science degree, one of the reasons the US took action on the ozone hole was that Thatcher had a chemistry degree, she understood the science, and she was able to convince Reagan it was actually a problem.

I feel in this day and age, a science or technology degree would be useful, it's embarrassing to see Senators discuss anything related to technology or science and it's increasingly important to understand.

I mean, at best, it would be great if we simply voted for intelligent people, alas we're in the age of hyperbolic, polarised populism.
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Diahon
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Postby Diahon » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:43 pm

guy paid his taxes

true, he barely did, it wasn't a consistent thing, and getting that info from him is as easy as threading his abyss through a needle -- but he did pay

also, running a business is what ordinary people do, especially if rhey have money for parents

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:43 pm

Bombadil wrote:Frankly I wouldn't mind if they had a science degree, one of the reasons the US took action on the ozone hole was that Thatcher had a chemistry degree, she understood the science, and she was able to convince Reagan it was actually a problem.

I feel in this day and age, a science or technology degree would be useful, it's embarrassing to see Senators discuss anything related to technology or science and it's increasingly important to understand.

I mean, at best, it would be great if we simply voted for intelligent people, alas we're in the age of hyperbolic, polarised populism.


I didn't know that particular story but I almost mentioned that Thatcher had the chemistry degree. Regardless of how one stands on her policies (I think the best thing that can be said for them is they created the environment for at least three very good television shows, which were, to varying degrees, critiques of said policies), Thatcher was a phenomenally successful politician.
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Narland
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Postby Narland » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:03 pm

If I had my drutthers, qualificaitons would be:

1. Mature adult (45 years of age or more) who no longer lives with parents, and is self-supportive.

2. Who has been steadily employed, or run his/her own business as an entrepreneur or private contractor for at least 10 years. Being an officer of a corporation, bank trustee, foundation fellow, or lobbyist does not count. Working in the governmental sector does not count. Being an elected official does not count.

3. Is not a criminal, or if has been a criminal has not committed a crime in the past 10 years, and if a felon qualified to run 10 years after rights have been restored.

4. Has spent all of formative years in a state of the United States, or one of its territories, special districts or trusts.

5. Has read, and understands the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the US, the Bill of Rights, the Ordinance of 1787, and other Organic Law, and will uphold them on penalty of criminal malfeasance.

6. Wears a shock collar that is attuned to telling lies.

But realistically, in a democracy people get the Presidents they deserve.
Last edited by Narland on Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:32 pm

The only things that really matter to me are their attitudes on guns, beer, trucks and the like.

Only Hicks and Rednecks should qualify for President. Or just the general backcountry crowd.
Last edited by Mercatus on Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:46 pm

A president's job is to lead the nation, and to mobilize existing political elements into passing their agenda. Questions about technical qualifications for designing policies are more relevant for their advisors and departmental secretaries.

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:05 pm

Abraham Lincoln regularly ranks among the best POTUS but is supposedly in the F tier from having little to no formal education. He probably had to of had some if he managed to become a lawyer however, whilst Woodrow Wilson was the most educated and credentialed from having a PhD, an MA, and an AB from no less than 4 colleges/universities but is said to be one of the worst.
Last edited by Saiwania on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:09 pm

They must have successfully completed several Dungeons & Dragons campaigns as both a player and DM.

They must not have, at any point, played a Bard.
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:33 pm

Two qualifications.

1. Non-authoritarian.

2. Pathologies confined to personal matters as opposed to sociopathy. Uncontrollable urges to, say, get one's knob polished (or the female or nonbinary equivalent) in inappropriate ways good; narcissistic and other assorted personality disorders that interfere with functioning necessary to, say, run the government of what once was the most powerful and influential nation on Earth and/or daddy issues that lead one to launch illegal wars of aggression on perceived enemies that pose no actual threat to the nation bad.

Oh and pay your damn taxes. Three qualifications.

And ruthless efficiency. Four qualifications.

And surprise. Surprise and fear. Cardinal Biggles, you'll have to do it.
Last edited by Postauthoritarian America on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vikanias
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Postby Vikanias » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:40 pm

Some things is see to be fit for president.

1. Must like seals

2. Is a seal
Last edited by Vikanias on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WayNeacTia » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:53 pm

The Imperium Empires wrote:I hardly believe a university degree should determine who is qualified for the presidency, some presidents came from poor backgrounds and those of poor backgrounds often have greater difficulty getting university degrees.

Truman came in without the slightest clue, and turned out to be one of the most influential presidents ever.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:55 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:They must have successfully completed several Dungeons & Dragons campaigns as both a player and DM.

They must not have, at any point, played a Bard.


Damn!
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Postby Bombadil » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:00 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:They must have successfully completed several Dungeons & Dragons campaigns as both a player and DM.

They must not have, at any point, played a Bard.


Damn!


We shall set up a bard-playing rights party, and defeat the likes of Neanderthaland and his heathen ilk.
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Postby Forsher » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:08 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
The Imperium Empires wrote:I hardly believe a university degree should determine who is qualified for the presidency, some presidents came from poor backgrounds and those of poor backgrounds often have greater difficulty getting university degrees.

Truman came in without the slightest clue, and turned out to be one of the most influential presidents ever.


More importantly, he was the last US President to have facial hair.
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:36 pm

Narland wrote:If I had my drutthers, qualificaitons would be:

A number of these seem silly or bad.

1. Mature adult (45 years of age or more) who no longer lives with parents, and is self-supportive.

What if one's parents live with him?

2. Who has been steadily employed, or run his/her own business as an entrepreneur or private contractor for at least 10 years

So Ronald Reagan doesn't count. He, for instance, was not steadily employed as he was an actor.

Being an officer of a corporation, bank trustee, foundation fellow, or lobbyist does not count. Working in the governmental sector does not count. Being an elected official does not count.

These seem silly. When I worked at a firm in finance, anyone at the director level was classified as an officer of the corporation, meaning that if they made it in less than 10 years, you would say their experience doesn't count. However, the founder of the firm somehow counts?

Further, there seem like many cases where I see zero legitimate reason for saying that someone who "works in the governmental sector" should be disqualified. For one, there go a great many doctors (many of whom may spend a majority of their career in a govt owned hospital), economists (who mostly work in academia, federal government, or tech as of recently), and career military officers (poor Ike can't be President anymore).

Quite frankly, I also just don't see why running a private business is in any way a comparable experience to running a country, and see no reason why that ought be a qualification. A country is not a corporation, we shouldn't act like it is one.

4. Has spent all of formative years in a state of the United States, or one of its territories, special districts or trusts.

Goodbye candidates from military families.

5. Has read, and understands the Declaration of Independence, Constitution of the US, the Bill of Rights, the Ordinance of 1787, and other Organic Law, and will uphold them on penalty of criminal malfeasance.

I fail to see why the Ordinance of 1787 has anything to do with anything today.
Last edited by Caninope on Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:07 am

An actual functioning brain. Please.
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Postby Esternial » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:22 am

64-core CPU, 128GB of RAM and at least 500GB of storage, preferably with an additional data disk of 400GB so they don't forget the past.
Last edited by Esternial on Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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