Flint, Michigan

[Bombadil]

So I'm watching a documentary series on Flint, Michigan and, while depressing, it does seem to capture so many of the issues facing the US in one city. The show is through the eyes of a highly depleted police force struggling to cope with the sheer workload in the face of increasing antipathy if not hatred however.. some issues are..

1. The decline of manufacturing - in 1980 Flint had the highest median wage in the US, by 2016 it was about the lowest as manufacturers, faced with increased competition, shunted their manufacturing elsewhere
2. Poverty and crime - no job opportunities means rising crime but with a low tax base there's not a great deal of support to change things around
3. Policing - the simple breakdown of trust between police and the community - a lot of the police force in Flint are actually black, so the conversation is mostly around how politics has hijacked the issue and lost nuance for an actual conversation around, say, BLM and race balanced against blind hatred of police who are mostly genuinely trying to help
4. Infrastructure - obviously the water crisis is an obvious one here, where for monetary reasons, Flint switched water from Huron to a river filled with poison, even knew about it and tried to hush up
5. Environment - simply, after years of manufacturing, the soil is toxic

So, specific to Flint, but also to the wider issues, what do you do with a city like Flint. Abandon it? Invest in restructuring it? Fix taxes so arts and crafts and gig economies can revive it?

The show is essentially from '16-'18 so if Flint has magically revived itself then pardon me but the question still stands.

[Haganham]

Fuck if I know.

[Esternial]

Flint has indeed sparked quite some discussion in the past *nods*

[Kowani]

the problem is that absent investment from the larger state, turning around subdivisions is extremely hard absent external miracles
you can't take the high track and invest in services to attract people/businesses to your city because you don't have the money to do that
and you can't take the low track (dubious as that is for long-term development) because your development costs are already abysmally low and nobody's there anyway

so your best solution is to do like Miluwaukee's Sewer Socialists-stop with the major infrastructure investments to nowhere/bloating police budgets that end up vacuuming wealth out of everyone (both from the actual city budget and a shitton of fees and fines)/getting contractors to do everything
but also, be tight with money
not stingy-don't be afraid to spend a lot-but be careful with where it goes (part of that "stop hiring contractors" thing)

there's more but it is 1am here

[Arpasia]

This kinda reminds me of those National Geographic shows I watched

[Dakini]

The city obviously needs jobs and development (I'm also not sure if they've got all the lead issues resolved with the water). Throwing more police at a city that lacks so much doesn't really help though.

[Bombadil]

The city obviously needs jobs and development (I'm also not sure if they've got all the lead issues resolved with the water). Throwing more police at a city that lacks so much doesn't really help though.

Well with the police it's more about ways to build up the trust again rather than just throwing numbers at the problem. However it's hard to build trust when poverty means resorting to crime is step one, suddenly everyone's a criminal.

I saw a really interesting documentary on post-war Berlin, basically because it was so cut off the property was cheap so it really attracted artists, musicians, designers, it created this culture that attracted David Bowie to live there, it was a kind of zeitgeist city and it remains a cultural powerhouse in art, design, architecture and etc.,

Similarly in Beijing there's an area called 798, which was a disused weapons factory that turned into a major art and cultural space because artists and the like used those cavernous spaces to squat and create.

I read a recent article of someone who accidentally bought the wrong house at an auction, they got a run down dilapidated mess for $10000, but they've spent the last two years patching it up, growing a garden, and now they have this self-sustained lifestyle.

So I have the idea that if the federal government did a major environmental clean up then there's just so many empty houses that could be patched and converted and artists and etc., could flock and it becomes a completely different economy.

That's my idealistic hippie dream anyway.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

I've said all along that rust belt cities like Detroit and its suburb Flint should be revitalzed through a combination of immigration (advertise and maybe offer tax breaks to foreigners who settle there) and establish any new government facilities there. A military base is a boon to the economic stability of a city. The rust belt has very few.

[Dakini]

The city obviously needs jobs and development (I'm also not sure if they've got all the lead issues resolved with the water). Throwing more police at a city that lacks so much doesn't really help though.

Well with the police it's more about ways to build up the trust again rather than just throwing numbers at the problem. However it's hard to build trust when poverty means resorting to crime is step one, suddenly everyone's a criminal.

I saw a really interesting documentary on post-war Berlin, basically because it was so cut off the property was cheap so it really attracted artists, musicians, designers, it created this culture that attracted David Bowie to live there, it was a kind of zeitgeist city and it remains a cultural powerhouse in art, design, architecture and etc.,

Similarly in Beijing there's an area called 798, which was a disused weapons factory that turned into a major art and cultural space because artists and the like used those cavernous spaces to squat and create.

I read a recent article of someone who accidentally bought the wrong house at an auction, they got a run down dilapidated mess for $10000, but they've spent the last two years patching it up, growing a garden, and now they have this self-sustained lifestyle.

So I have the idea that if the federal government did a major environmental clean up then there's just so many empty houses that could be patched and converted and artists and etc., could flock and it becomes a completely different economy.

That's my idealistic hippie dream anyway.

I'm not sure how much that helps the people already there though. They definitely need opportunities too.

It's not just Flint either, a lot of Michigan needs a lot of help.

[Reborn Ottoman Sultan]

The story of Flint Michigan represents the "Great American Rustbelt Experience." It therefore goes without saying: Flint is merely one of many former centers of American manufacturing that have defaulted & ultimately faltered. As result, they have remaining in perpetual states of socio-economic decline. Detroit Michigan, Gary Indiana, & Youngtown Ohio share a common story of "urban atrophy" with Flint Michigan. There is a sociological phenomenon at work culminating in wishful thinking: people hope their cities will restore their former glory using similar modalities from history without realizing the "good old days" as they once were are gone & never returning. American heavy manufacturing made slight comebacks pre-COVID, but remains very much an outsourced sphere of the national economy.

The solution rests with a simple realization: there is no 20th century solution for a 21st century problems. What can the former centers of American manufacturing under a "renewed cultural renaissance" do to engage major multinationals like Tesla, SpaceX, & the tech startup sector where they can offer comparative advantages Silicon Valley & New York City cannot? What comparative advantages can they offer? Apart from low costs associated with startups & living expenses generally, Youngstown or Gary could be the next great centers of research & development for space exploration fielding technologies for future missions to the Moon, Mars, & Beyond. The reality is this: a tech startup can be established anywhere well beyond the cult like tutelage of Silicon Valley. However, that realization is further vaunted by a simple question: how supportive will their greater communities be when such great visions of the future potentialize into tangible action?

Perhaps the solution rests with high school advocacy organizations that partner with endowment organizations & crowdfunding platforms under adages of empowering demographically challenged communities of color for purposes of advancing civilization into the next scientific frontier? Rust belt communities can redefine education in ways that make it more efficient by emphasizing advanced curriculum through a streamlined academic system. The idea here seeks to accelerate high school graduation without traditional baggage normally associated with its nomenclature. In the end, socio-economic access is the ultimate determinant of a city's long term success or failure...

[Ethel mermania]

So I'm watching a documentary series on Flint, Michigan and, while depressing, it does seem to capture so many of the issues facing the US in one city. The show is through the eyes of a highly depleted police force struggling to cope with the sheer workload in the face of increasing antipathy if not hatred however.. some issues are..

1. The decline of manufacturing - in 1980 Flint had the highest median wage in the US, by 2016 it was about the lowest as manufacturers, faced with increased competition, shunted their manufacturing elsewhere
2. Poverty and crime - no job opportunities means rising crime but with a low tax base there's not a great deal of support to change things around
3. Policing - the simple breakdown of trust between police and the community - a lot of the police force in Flint are actually black, so the conversation is mostly around how politics has hijacked the issue and lost nuance for an actual conversation around, say, BLM and race balanced against blind hatred of police who are mostly genuinely trying to help
4. Infrastructure - obviously the water crisis is an obvious one here, where for monetary reasons, Flint switched water from Huron to a river filled with poison, even knew about it and tried to hush up
5. Environment - simply, after years of manufacturing, the soil is toxic

So, specific to Flint, but also to the wider issues, what do you do with a city like Flint. Abandon it? Invest in restructuring it? Fix taxes so arts and crafts and gig economies can revive it?

The show is essentially from '16-'18 so if Flint has magically revived itself then pardon me but the question still stands.

The problem with the tax fix is gentrification takes over. NYC was the first example of this with the tax abatement for renovation did bring in the artists, into soho. It made the area attractive, brought in arts shops and restaurants and folks who had money to spend which jacked up the rents and forced the people who lived there out.

If you look at nyc it worked, the city was brought back from bankruptcy because of these changes and thrived. That said there were losers too,, It displaced the folks who lived there.

[San Lumen]

I've said all along that rust belt cities like Detroit and its suburb Flint should be revitalzed through a combination of immigration (advertise and maybe offer tax breaks to foreigners who settle there) and establish any new government facilities there. A military base is a boon to the economic stability of a city. The rust belt has very few.

I agree with this. Refugees helped Buffalo revitalize. They can do the same for Flint and Detroit.

[Major-Tom]

I don't really know at this point. I think some of the band-aids we've tried to apply to cities like Flint (IE tax incentives for businesses, grants and subsidies for redevelopment, and the general urge to throw money at the problem) only does so much. In other words, it helps, but it doesn't help in the long-term nor does it address the roots of the problem.

To fix cities like Flint the federal government has to implement and pass economic policies that promote cohesion and economic equity across the board, for citizens in Flint and in the ritzy suburbs. Beyond that, the citizenry of these cities like Flint have to want to save their cities. In rust belt cities like Rochester NY, like Pittsburgh, like Milwaukee, it has happened but only because of grassroots efforts in conjunction with strong municipal government support.

[San Lumen]

I don't really know at this point. I think some of the band-aids we've tried to apply to cities like Flint (IE tax incentives for businesses, grants and subsidies for redevelopment, and the general urge to throw money at the problem) only does so much. In other words, it helps, but it doesn't help in the long-term nor does it address the roots of the problem.

To fix cities like Flint the federal government has to implement and pass economic policies that promote cohesion and economic equity across the board, for citizens in Flint and in the ritzy suburbs. Beyond that, the citizenry of these cities like Flint have to want to save their cities. In rust belt cities like Rochester NY, like Pittsburgh, like Milwaukee, it has happened but only because of grassroots efforts in conjunction with strong municipal government support.

That hasn’t been done in Flint? It took years for places such as Buffalo and Pittsburgh to recover. Refugees are a big part of Buffalo’s recovery.

[Major-Tom]

I don't really know at this point. I think some of the band-aids we've tried to apply to cities like Flint (IE tax incentives for businesses, grants and subsidies for redevelopment, and the general urge to throw money at the problem) only does so much. In other words, it helps, but it doesn't help in the long-term nor does it address the roots of the problem.

To fix cities like Flint the federal government has to implement and pass economic policies that promote cohesion and economic equity across the board, for citizens in Flint and in the ritzy suburbs. Beyond that, the citizenry of these cities like Flint have to want to save their cities. In rust belt cities like Rochester NY, like Pittsburgh, like Milwaukee, it has happened but only because of grassroots efforts in conjunction with strong municipal government support.

That hasn’t been done in Flint? It took years for places such as Buffalo and Pittsburgh to recover. Refugees are a big part of Buffalo’s recovery.

The Flint local government certainly did not give a fuck until this last year or two, that is certainly my conclusion here.

As for refugees? Yeah, sure, they help somewhat. It's another one of those small-scale band-aids that can aid a larger solution.

[San Lumen]

That hasn’t been done in Flint? It took years for places such as Buffalo and Pittsburgh to recover. Refugees are a big part of Buffalo’s recovery.

The Flint local government certainly did not give a fuck until this last year or two, that is certainly my conclusion here.

As for refugees? Yeah, sure, they help somewhat. It's another one of those small-scale band-aids that can aid a larger solution.

Its certainly helped in Buffalo. It can work in Flint.

[The Serbian Empire]

The Flint local government certainly did not give a fuck until this last year or two, that is certainly my conclusion here.

As for refugees? Yeah, sure, they help somewhat. It's another one of those small-scale band-aids that can aid a larger solution.

Its certainly helped in Buffalo. It can work in Flint.

The issue is Flint's suburbs are much more conservative out of being far more white to the point the county is purple and likely would avoid the city and surrounding townships. As in would a person in Davison or Grand Blanc make a trip to Lapeer or Oakland County instead of not being racist? Given the fact Davison is larger than a small one light town, the answer is probably yes. White flight explains a lot of Flint's decline and why places like Davison and Grand Blanc are more than a couple thousand people at most.