How can society be more inclusive to people with disability?

[Punished UMN]

Also, it's there to help people who deal with disorders like paralysis and genetic conditions to show that even with their issues, there can still be positivity and compassion and that they should be allowed to live life to the fullest that they choose.

I'm taking this from the American Politics discussion thread because it's one that's been an issue for me in my personal life lately: disability rights and quality of life, how can they be ensured? There has been talk about reform to disability insurance by upping the maximum allowed amount of assets and more leeway in marriage, but this doesn't fundamentally solve the problem that the system is simply not designed for disabled people, it's designed for people who aren't, and so it's incredibly difficult for someone with disabilities (like myself) to find self-support in the system and live one's life to a better extent. I'm speaking descriptively because, frankly, I don't have a solution, I don't know how to build a society that is more inclusive for disabled people in a way that wouldn't be intrusive on non-disabled people. There's disability insurance sure, but it has limited coverage, you can mandate that employers not discriminate on grounds of disability, but that can only go so far, some disabilities are disabling enough that to mandate employers not discriminate is just mandating that they lose productivity. Social services aren't fixing the issue, some aren't sufficient, and some disabilities can't address them. Then there's the issue of quality of life for people with disabilities, and frankly a lot of us have pretty poor quality of life, between difficulty finding employment, social difficulties relating to disability (whether as a direct result, a tangential result of a physical symptom, or social stigma), and lack of adequate housing, services, and businesses that cater to the disabled, there's a lot of omnipresent problems in a lot of disabled people's lives (this isn't just a vent post for me either, it's empirically observable, disabled people are twice as likely to be socially isolated. But the thing is, I don't know how to fix that problem for us, it's impossible to make every space inclusive for every person with disabilities, and some spaces are almost, by design, exclusive to people with certain disabilities, and there's not really a way to make them inclusive without defeating the purpose of the space. So I'm actually asking for policy suggestions that would make a difference. They don't have to necessarily be politically feasible, just what you guys think is desirable and would help the problem. Economically, socially, service-wise, etc.

It's 12 am and this wasn't originally meant to be its own thread, so forgive the sloppy formatting and open-endedness please.

[Odreria]

well ig it starts by, mankind has gotta be better about being homies one with another.

[Atheara]

well ig it starts by, mankind has gotta be better about being homies one with another.

Problem is, some people will still be dicks about it no matter what.

[Saiwania]

The harsh truth in my view, is that most non-disabled people won't care, they don't want to be taking care of a disabled person. Once your body breaks down on you, people will push you towards a nursing home or hospice so that you'll die sooner. Once you're not as physically capable, bosses or decision makers will move to get you fired or dismissed.

The only way is to avoid becoming paralyzed for as long as possible or to take care of yourself in staying in physical shape. You either fix, limit, or conceal your disabilities where possible if you still want to be useful. If you're more of a burden than a benefit, people will look to abandon you by default.

It is nothing new, there is always going to be a bias towards rewarding ableism. People want someone who wins rather than loses. Plus in our species' hunter gatherer origins or phase, whoever couldn't survive was abandoned to their fate for the sake of splitting resources with the rest of the tribe that was still productive.

The best solution I could devise was for them to stay with extended family if that is in the cards, but to stay they'd have to provide some non-physical boon such as if they could babysit for free whilst the working parents are away at work, and can avoid the costly daycare options.

[Bombadil]

The harsh truth in my view, is that most non-disabled people won't care..

Well to just take this part and ignore the rest of Saiwana's typical total lack of empathy..

..it's not that people don't care necessarily but they're unaware. I once went on an outing for a charity for the blind where they converted a factory into typical every day activities and then plunged you into complete darkness, and you had to navigate your way around certain things, like crossing a road, or finding a seat. I used to find the noise pedestrian traffic lights make, that beep beep beep, annoying but I understand how critical they are for the blind now.

I feel more of this can be brought through education, they have anti-mobility suits to feel what it's like to be old, or just try navigate your way around in a wheelchair for a day.

Without actually experiencing difficulties for themselves, people just don't particularly see the problem. It's the same with race or gender issues, one tends to dismiss complaints because you've never actually experienced them.

That would help to start to address the issues.

[Deacarsia]

While I personally dislike the present common usage word “inclusive” (an essentially political term), in this case I agree with the premise of this thread, provided it is properly framed and understood.

I believe that society should balance the interests of all its members, in accordance with the Aristotelian-Thomistic conception of the public good. In this spirit, I believe that society should make efforts to improve the conditions of its most vulnerable members first: women, children, the elderly, and the disabled. This of course must be balanced with the needs of the other members of the polity so as to produce the best possible conditions for all members of society to flourish. This may require innovative solutions or more mundane ideas, as each case may require.

One thing that I strongly believe must be understood is both that the disabled are people and disabilities are disabilities. While this seemingly is obvious at first thought, I notice that there tend to be problems with both points. A disabled person is a human being, bearing the image of God, and deserving of the full dignity due to a fellow member of the human race. It is wrong to treat the disabled as anything other than this, and the mistreatment of the disabled should be prevented with the full force of the law. The severity of punishment should scale directly both with the magnitude of the offense and the severity of the particular disability in question (though I would not extend this to so-called “hate speech” laws, which are extremely dangerous to the public good in themselves). In the moral terms of society, the disabled should neither be unduly lauded nor (especially) maliciously attacked simply for being disabled, but they should be viewed as unique individuals with unique circumstances and needs, just as anyone.

However, it must also be recognized that disabilities are exactly that: disabilities. It is not good for a person to be disabled, and if possible disabilities should be treated or cured. This is not to impute any moral fault on the person himself, but simply to acknowledge that disability as an inherently negative condition or state is something that we rather would not have exist. Thus, it (usually) is proper to say that someone suffers from a disability; saying this actually elevates their humanity, contrary to common polite opinion. This does not mean that a disability necessarily means that a person cannot have a good quality of life, but only that the disability itself is not something positive or good for the person himself. A disability indeed should not define a person, and ignoring its nature as a disability precisely does this.

It irritates me to no end to see others in denial about this obvious fact, of which I could give several examples that come to mind, such as autism. Autism is not just being “different” or something positive or a happy occasion; it is an immensely sad disorder from which real people suffer, particularly the low-functioning autistics, and to pretend that it is not is itself a grave insult to the disabled person in question. I should know; I have a relative who suffers from low-functioning non-verbal autism. It would be a momentously happy occasion for such a person to be cured of his disability, and it is sad that it cannot be so (yet). Once more, this is not an insult to the disabled to acknowledge this plain fact, but it simply is to face reality and deal with it without lying to oneself, which only can make the situation worse as commonsense and my own personal experiences have shown. Facing the reality of a situation can produce nothing but good for the situation.

All of this being said (and I feel that it need be said nowadays), still the disabled ought to be helped, cared for, and overall elevated in their humanity. As I stated, they are fellow members of the human race, and often among the most vulnerable members at that, and society should have institutions, structures, and channels to help such people live as whole and fulfilling a life as possible, given the limits of the disability. One thing that must unequivocally be condemned as evil and barbaric are the vile and murderous ideas of “euthanasia,” eugenics (especially negative), sterilization, killing, or abortion for or of the disabled, which have been the sad practice of many human societies throughout the entirety of history; I had serious reservations about even including this point, but there indeed are evil people in the world who would dare to advocate such monstrosities, so I felt it only right to mention it briefly.

As I mentioned, I think that creative solutions are a good way to approach this issue, as well as more conventional solutions. For example, for the blind I think it is good and reasonable to provide accommodations in the form of the widespread inclusion Braille, special schools, and other aids to help them to navigate the world. I think that street and subway maps should take into consideration the colorblind in deciding which colors to contrast different features and landmarks. I think that ramps and other accessible entrances can be included in many locations for the lame. All these and more can be good ways to help the disabled, and I am sure that there are many others beyond these potential examples that can be debated, discussed, and possibly implemented. So long as society maintains a loving and compassionate (but realistic) view of disability and its social and individual effects as I outlined, I think that we can make a society that benefits all.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt it necessary to treat so sensitive and important a topic in the full and deliberate manner that it deserves.

[USS Monitor]

The harsh truth in my view, is that most non-disabled people won't care..

Well to just take this part and ignore the rest of Saiwana's typical total lack of empathy..

..it's not that people don't care necessarily but they're unaware. I once went on an outing for a charity for the blind where they converted a factory into typical every day activities and then plunged you into complete darkness, and you had to navigate your way around certain things, like crossing a road, or finding a seat. I used to find the noise pedestrian traffic lights make, that beep beep beep, annoying but I understand how critical they are for the blind now.

I feel more of this can be brought through education, they have anti-mobility suits to feel what it's like to be old, or just try navigate your way around in a wheelchair for a day.

Without actually experiencing difficulties for themselves, people just don't particularly see the problem. It's the same with race or gender issues, one tends to dismiss complaints because you've never actually experienced them.

That would help to start to address the issues.

Yeah... I know a blind guy who is a very nice guy, but he definitely needs his disability checks because his blindness really slows him down and makes it difficult to go out to unfamiliar places. Even little things like curbs or tree roots or cracked sidewalks can be tripping hazards. When you can see where you're going, it's really easy not to trip over these things, and you barely even notice they are there. But when I went out and about with him, I realized there are A LOT of uneven surfaces.

He used to work at a grocery store before his eye sight got so bad, but then his eyes got worse and he just couldn't manage.

He also missed out on having a good education because his eye problems landed him in a special needs class that was way slower than he needed. So that could have been handled better.

[Resilient Acceleration]

I for one believe in the transhumanist salvation of widespread bodily engineering that will take away man's fate from God's pitiful design flaws and put it into our own choices. The goal is to not "conform" to societal normalcy (of which is already lacking), the goal is to far exceed it.

[CoraSpia]

So I'm in a weird position as a blind guy with a degree who's trying (with very little look rn) to enter the job market.
Around familiar places it doesn't take me long to learn the way around but with unfamiliar places someone will have to show me around for a week or two, and yeah I'm probably going to fall over a few times. The issue isn't that I'm probably going to fall over a few times though, I've been falling over for 24 years now. I'm very much aware that gravity works. The issue is that society is shitscared of the fact I might fall over, which creates the issue of very well-intentioned people deciding they've now got a duty to 'help' whether I want help or not.
Don't get me wrong, if I'm somewhere I don't know I want your help. When I met up with Fartsniffage, Celritannia and Ostro a few months ago I'd have been fucked if I didn't have help: the issue is when I know where I am, where I want to go and how to get there and somebody does something like badgers me for 5 minutes so I lose track of where I'm going, or decides to grab hold of me or my cane in a really desperate attempt to help. Although tbh if you grab me and I've told you to get off a few times, including trying to get out of your unwanted grip, I'm either going to shove you rather hard or call the police, no time for those people.

It does feed into that mindset that I think a lot of society has which is really holding disabled people back. Many people see us as people who need to be protected and kept out of harms way (whatever we might think on the subject) rather than people who can get jobs, find love, raise a family etc. There are obviously going to be some people who could not ever get a job on account of their disability but as someone who doesn't fall into this camp this attitude really annoys me.

[Deacarsia]

So I'm in a weird position as a blind guy with a degree who's trying (with very little look rn) to enter the job market.
Around familiar places it doesn't take me long to learn the way around but with unfamiliar places someone will have to show me around for a week or two, and yeah I'm probably going to fall over a few times. The issue isn't that I'm probably going to fall over a few times though, I've been falling over for 24 years now. I'm very much aware that gravity works. The issue is that society is shitscared of the fact I might fall over, which creates the issue of very well-intentioned people deciding they've now got a duty to 'help' whether I want help or not.
Don't get me wrong, if I'm somewhere I don't know I want your help. When I met up with Fartsniffage, Celritannia and Ostro a few months ago I'd have been fucked if I didn't have help: the issue is when I know where I am, where I want to go and how to get there and somebody does something like badgers me for 5 minutes so I lose track of where I'm going, or decides to grab hold of me or my cane in a really desperate attempt to help. Although tbh if you grab me and I've told you to get off a few times, including trying to get out of your unwanted grip, I'm either going to shove you rather hard or call the police, no time for those people.

It does feed into that mindset that I think a lot of society has which is really holding disabled people back. Many people see us as people who need to be protected and kept out of harms way (whatever we might think on the subject) rather than people who can get jobs, find love, raise a family etc. There are obviously going to be some people who could not ever get a job on account of their disability but as someone who doesn't fall into this camp this attitude really annoys me.

I can see why that would be annoying.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

[Parxland]

Education, knowledge, and health is the way to a more inclusive population. We as a species need better and more of all three aspects.

[The Black Forrest]

*snip*

[CoraSpia]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

This totally, but related to that I'd add that we also need to recognise that a lot of people have good days and bad days. I have a friend with chronic pain: sometimes she was dancing in night clubs, other days she was in a wheelchair.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

This totally, but related to that I'd add that we also need to recognise that a lot of people have good days and bad days. I have a friend with chronic pain: sometimes she was dancing in night clubs, other days she was in a wheelchair.

Absolutely. I have a friend who has fibromyalgia. Some days she’s fine. Others she can’t even get out of bed without writhing in absolute pain.

[Talvezout]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

Exactly this.

I will admit that this is a very surface level take for topic that is immensely complex and multi-facted, but I would say a major part of creating an inclusive society would be increasing education and visibility on disability - both in terms of physical and mental disabilities. Most mental disabilities and illnesses, for example, I have seen reduced to stuff like "stop being depressed" or "stop being anxious" or "why are you acting that way". In my own experience, I am on the autistic spectrum and I also have multiple genetic mental disorders (depression, anxiety, BPD, etc). While my disabilities are not "external", they have affected my own work and relationships to the point where I have lost friends because there are times where it takes near immense strength to control who I am.

One thing I am immensely thankful for is that the younger generations (e.g, my generation and below) are becoming somewhat more inclusive in terms of disabilities. Obviously nothing is perfect and heaven knows how many issues Generation Z has, but from my own anecdotal experiences, there is a bit of a change.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

Exactly this.

I will admit that this is a very surface level take for topic that is immensely complex and multi-facted, but I would say a major part of creating an inclusive society would be increasing education and visibility on disability - both in terms of physical and mental disabilities. Most mental disabilities and illnesses, for example, I have seen reduced to stuff like "stop being depressed" or "stop being anxious" or "why are you acting that way". In my own experience, I am on the autistic spectrum and I also have multiple genetic mental disorders (depression, anxiety, BPD, etc). While my disabilities are not "external", they have affected my own work and relationships to the point where I have lost friends because there are times where it takes near immense strength to control who I am.

One thing I am immensely thankful for is that the younger generations (e.g, my generation and below) are becoming somewhat more inclusive in terms of disabilities. Obviously nothing is perfect and heaven knows how many issues Generation Z has, but from my own anecdotal experiences, there is a bit of a change.

Quite so. It's a complex subject but I didn't want to go too deep because it would involve discussing some personal matters I'd rather not discuss. They could detract from the overall topic. All I can say is that disabilities aren't always visible, and immediately assuming someone can't be disabled because they don't ''look sick'' is a very myopic view of things. It can also be downright malicious, even if not always intentionally so.

[Punished UMN]

I don't wish to delve too much in this because it's a topic that is too close to home but one thing that needs to change in our social approach to be inclusive to people with disabilities is to stop shaming those who have disabilities that aren't readily visible. This idea that you have to look sick enough outwardly to be worthy of help. Some disabilities are internal, or psychological and do not necessarily present with physically visible symptoms. We need to understand that. And more to the point, we need to stop being dismissive of these people.

Exactly this.

I will admit that this is a very surface level take for topic that is immensely complex and multi-facted, but I would say a major part of creating an inclusive society would be increasing education and visibility on disability - both in terms of physical and mental disabilities. Most mental disabilities and illnesses, for example, I have seen reduced to stuff like "stop being depressed" or "stop being anxious" or "why are you acting that way". In my own experience, I am on the autistic spectrum and I also have multiple genetic mental disorders (depression, anxiety, BPD, etc). While my disabilities are not "external", they have affected my own work and relationships to the point where I have lost friends because there are times where it takes near immense strength to control who I am.

One thing I am immensely thankful for is that the younger generations (e.g, my generation and below) are becoming somewhat more inclusive in terms of disabilities. Obviously nothing is perfect and heaven knows how many issues Generation Z has, but from my own anecdotal experiences, there is a bit of a change.

It's not jus an issue of awareness of disability though, it's also largely an issue that society is not designed for disabled people. There are some jobs that some people with disabilities will never be able to do, some social spaces that will never be accessible for some with disabilities, and some services which have limited availability. Stigma is a huge problem, but it's also an institutional problem in the sense that society was made for people who are not disabled, and that a by-product of this is that people with disabilities are not able to achieve autonomy as easily. As an example: how do we make society more inclusive to people who are deaf when society's primary (and sometimes *only*) means of communication is auditory, or when auditory stimulation is one of the primary forms of social entertainment?

[Serrus]

The harsh truth in my view, is that most non-disabled people won't care, they don't want to be taking care of a disabled person. Once your body breaks down on you, people will push you towards a nursing home or hospice so that you'll die sooner. Once you're not as physically capable, bosses or decision makers will move to get you fired or dismissed.

The only way is to avoid becoming paralyzed for as long as possible or to take care of yourself in staying in physical shape. You either fix, limit, or conceal your disabilities where possible if you still want to be useful. If you're more of a burden than a benefit, people will look to abandon you by default.

It is nothing new, there is always going to be a bias towards rewarding ableism. People want someone who wins rather than loses. Plus in our species' hunter gatherer origins or phase, whoever couldn't survive was abandoned to their fate for the sake of splitting resources with the rest of the tribe that was still productive.

Or, y'know, we have proper disability rights legislation? I have cerebral palsy, so physical labor jobs are kinda out, hence why I'm going for a museum related profession. But I was born with it. Are you saying I am a loser, and should have been abandoned into an institution for being born?

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

The state exists for the society. There are individuals with disabilities in the society. The duty of the state is to adapt individuals with disabilities to all parts of the society. All the way around the world should be prepared for disabled people, because let's not forget that we can all be disabled one day.

[The Sherpa Empire]

The harsh truth in my view, is that most non-disabled people won't care, they don't want to be taking care of a disabled person. Once your body breaks down on you, people will push you towards a nursing home or hospice so that you'll die sooner. Once you're not as physically capable, bosses or decision makers will move to get you fired or dismissed.

The only way is to avoid becoming paralyzed for as long as possible or to take care of yourself in staying in physical shape. You either fix, limit, or conceal your disabilities where possible if you still want to be useful. If you're more of a burden than a benefit, people will look to abandon you by default.

It is nothing new, there is always going to be a bias towards rewarding ableism. People want someone who wins rather than loses. Plus in our species' hunter gatherer origins or phase, whoever couldn't survive was abandoned to their fate for the sake of splitting resources with the rest of the tribe that was still productive.

Or, y'know, we have proper disability rights legislation? I have cerebral palsy, so physical labor jobs are kinda out, hence why I'm going for a museum related profession. But I was born with it. Are you saying I am a loser, and should have been abandoned into an institution for being born?

Sai is spouting bullshit. Do your museum thing and don't listen to him.

[Reploid Productions]

Hoo boy, this one is a complex, infuriating problem with no single or simple fix. Some potential fixes, IMO:

1) Education. Education is one part of scrubbing the social stigma away. Both the stigma faced by those with visible/obvious disability and the harassment those with invisible disabilities get saddled with. People often fear what they don't understand, and there's a lot of not understanding that surrounds disabilities of all flavors.

2) Increase support resources and access to support personnel. Support services are a hell of lot better in many developed nations than they were just when I was a kid, but those services tend to be the afterthought of government budgeting and as a result are lacking either the funding or the staff (frequently both, along with high turnover due to low wages/burnout) to more effectively provide those support services. Additionally, expanding these services could provide plenty of new jobs. Fix the low wages problem, and you'd probably have a dedicated, long-term work force doing something they find a lot more fulfilling than retail or office work. At least, every person I've ever met who works with folks with disabilities, from children with physical or intellectual/developmental disabilities to independent living staff for adults have been passionate about their work.

3) Increase accessibility. I'm not just talking wheelchair ramps and lifts. I'm talking affordable, timely transportation. Public health and safety personnel being properly trained to assist or react appropriately to people with disabilities. Greater advocacy for those who can't advocate for themselves. Better accommodation in the work place; just think of how many jobs the pandemic has shown can in fact be worked remotely from home, and how much that can improve accessibility to jobs for perfectly capable people who are shut out at present due to disabilities hampering their mobility. Society can (and SHOULD) be a hell of a lot more accessible than it currently is.

4) Improve visibility and public perception/portrayal. Pop media, I'm looking at you. Just like with race or sexuality and gender identity, improve disabled representation in media. Quit using disabilities as a shortcut to making a character, or making that character's disability basically the only thing of note about that character, stuff like that just helps perpetuate stereotypes about disabilities. Folks with disabilities are every bit as complex and interesting as folks who aren't disabled. Way, way too often you see disabled characters in fiction that are basically just a caricature of their disability with little else to their character.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I've always been pro-disability-rights, but now that I'm dealing with permanent physical disability, the only solution I see on real change is to both include disabled people in every conversation, and to make disability friendly spaces and law the norm, not the exception.

It's frustrating and embarrassing and dehumanizing, trying to navigate a world where I am not supposed to be there. Oh, this business added a single bathroom stall that I can use? Sometimes that works. But not when I have to wait for it to be available, and certainly not when I leave the stall and can't use the sink properly because no one thought about making the sink accessible??? And I can't get help in so many ways because disability laws and services are so narrow or underfunded or hidden.

It's not enough to have people who are "aware" in disability reform trying to help. We actively need disabled folks making the plans and being consulted.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

I’m always amused when some other poster gets completely gobsmacked when I say “In order to treat people equally, it is sometimes necessary to treat them unequally. Some folks need a wheelchair ramp. Some folks need a little extra time to complete an assignment. We cannot expect everyone to function equally on the exact same playing field, and it is wrong to do so.

As Reppy said: the biggest part is education. When people know about a condition, they no longer fear it. If they do not fear it, they can at least respect it.

[Reploid Productions]

I've always been pro-disability-rights, but now that I'm dealing with permanent physical disability, the only solution I see on real change is to both include disabled people in every conversation, and to make disability friendly spaces and law the norm, not the exception.

It's frustrating and embarrassing and dehumanizing, trying to navigate a world where I am not supposed to be there. Oh, this business added a single bathroom stall that I can use? Sometimes that works. But not when I have to wait for it to be available, and certainly not when I leave the stall and can't use the sink properly because no one thought about making the sink accessible??? And I can't get help in so many ways because disability laws and services are so narrow or underfunded or hidden.

It's not enough to have people who are "aware" in disability reform trying to help. We actively need disabled folks making the plans and being consulted.

D'oh! That's the one I was missing. Absolutely this. Somebody can be an ally and advocate until they're blue in the face, but they're never going to be able to fully understand what somebody with a disability wants or needs if that person isn't a part of the conversation.