Afghanistan - What should have been done, what should be don

[Kubra]

Afghanistan can be understood or handled by Afghans. No foreign power can ever control it. The Afghan government installed by the US wasn't viable at any time in the last 20 years, it was a kleptocracy from the beginning. Half the reason the Afghan army refused to fight the Taliban was that they hadn't been paid for months because corruption was so pervasive it ate up the soldiers' entire salaries.

Persia, Greece, Mongolia, Moghuls, India, etc... all were able to control it pretty well. Also, Pakistan just installed a puppet government there, like, last week.

it's not correct to call the Taliban puppets, because it seriously overestimates their actual level of control. Like yo, they couldn't get the Taliban to officially agree on the border last time, which is funny because it was the whole point of this nonsense.

[Kowani]

wrong thread

[Duvniask]

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

Afghanistan can be understood or handled by Afghans. No foreign power can ever control it.

It's a strange mysteriousness you're attributing to a land that is fundamentally made up of human beings like you and me. Cracking this nut may be hard, but then again, we don't have the tools of anthropology or, say, politology for nothing.

The Afghan government installed by the US wasn't viable at any time in the last 20 years, it was a kleptocracy from the beginning. Half the reason the Afghan army refused to fight the Taliban was that they hadn't been paid for months because corruption was so pervasive it ate up the soldiers' entire salaries.

Considering the first page of this thread has me quoting SIGAR's explanations of these problems, there's no need for you to explain them to me.

The fundamental problem is that the US did not conduct enough thorough study of the conditions on the ground and attempt to tailor its policies accordingly, and perhaps there never was an interest in doing so in the first place, considering that so much Afghanistan policy was centered around achieving speedy results that looked impressive on paper but weren't truly part of any sustainable development. This does not mean it was somehow inevitable that things turned out as they did. Afghanistan is not the first tribal society struggling with making the jump into the modern age.

If you're going to argue the failed outcome in Afghanistan was inevitable, you must look to causal processes originating in the American policy process, not Afghanistan being a mysterious unknowable entity impenetrable to foreigners, because that is simply not the case.

[A m e n r i a]

With the Taliban having taken over the country, the twin questions seem to be what should we do and what caused it.

It is my opinion that the answer to the second gives rise to the first.

When the Taliban were forced out of control 20 years ago, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the caves and mountains, organized, planned, and generally worked (with the clandestine help of outside powers) on plans to outlast the secularists to retake power.

When the secularists were forced out of power last week, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the airports and borders to ensure their safety. If the secularists really want to retake power, they need to look to the Taliban for the methods that work; running away is not one of them.

As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.

If, on the other hand, the only goal for the secular Afghan people is survival, then let them leave their people under Taliban rule. It is up to the Afghan people to decide their own fate.

Other opinions are, of course, welcomed and sought.

The Americans tried that already. Didn't go so well for everyone involved.

[Turk Cumhuriyeti]

As I told its already a finished sroey.

[Postauthoritarian America]

While we shouldn't have been there at all, we really screwed up the withdrawal.

Who's "we?" Under very difficult conditions including a collapsing government and subsequent chaos which tragically but predictably resulted in loss of life, the US and its military under the Biden administration have successfully evacuated over 100,000 individuals from Kabul airport, soon to include all Afghan employees of the closed US Embassy and their families amounting to another 2,600 individuals. Just today it thwarted another potential attack on the airport with an over the horizon drone strike. While any number of people might have hoped such a thing wouldn't have happened it's clear that it would have whether the US stayed in Afghanistan for another month, another year or another two decades. And if we're placing blame for all of this a great deal of it has to adhere to the previous administration which for its own, largely domestic political, reasons concluded a fatally flawed withdrawal agreement with the Taliban that cut out the feckless Afghan government and arguably directly led to the collapse we are witnessing today.

[The Alma Mater]

While we shouldn't have been there at all, we really screwed up the withdrawal.

Yes, Fox and friends say so - but is it true ?

So far the loss of American military lives is quite small - without the ISIS attack it would even have been zero. All US civilians that are still there are there by choice - they had months to get out on flights paid for by the US government. Nevertheless, Biden was nice enough to pul thousands of "we regret our choice now" people out in the past few days.

The material left behind was never meant to be taken home. Getting it out would be far too costly.

In short: for Americans, the withdrawal was one of the greatest succesfull withdrawals in US history. It sucks for the US allies and it very, very, very much sucks for the Afghanis - but "America first", right ?

[Turk Cumhuriyeti]

I will repost my opinion that I posted in another topic about the conflict and which I believe corresponds ro the reality:

The major problem that is not understood about Afghaistan is that the communist coups and then the Soviet occupation ruined the base of the society and threw the country in chaos and conflict that doesnt seem to end anytime. Because under the monarchy the different communities had some degree of autonomy, representation, there were some elements of democracy and the system allowed the many different communities and segments of the society to exist. However, the communist forced "modernisation" with terrorist methods blew up this tiny balance, radicalised the population and so on. It seems that after 2001 the western powers tried to restore that old system (because the NATO forces didnt only chase the Taliban, they also teied to create a state with institutions and administration (between 1996 and 2001 Afghanistan was not a state in the real sense of this word but just a territorry governed by a militia). However this attempt of the west failed because of the high corruption of the cadres they installed, the ignoring of the problems of the people by the state organs and so on. So the Taliban insurgency and their return to power should not be seen as an Islamist uprising or something like this, its more kind of an uprising of the disappointed (desperated) villagers against the totally uninsterested in their problems power. However as we see they also cant create functioning state, they exclude of the power and decision making process very big parts of the society and the laws they force upon the citizens may be perfect for the population of their native province but are totally inadequate for other parts of the country.

[Al-Harreh Danistarab]

They should have put me in charge.

Are you Muslim, bro?

Muslim rule for Muslim land.