Afghanistan - What should have been done, what should be don

[New haven america]

While I am not a fan of how the Taliban rule, a case could be made that they are a more legitimate government than the one they replaced.

In 2001, the Taliban government was deposed by a foreign invasion, which created the secularist government and kept it in power by the use of foreign military forces to suppress its enemies. The Taliban returned to power by the efforts of native Afghans, assisted by some foreign volunteers and support on a non-interventionist level. Objectively, which makes for a more legitimate government?

No it wasn't.

A lot of Afghanis are actually calling the Taliban "Pakistani Invaders" because of how much of the current group isn't actually Afghani.

[Turk Cumhuriyeti]

Nothing. İt finished already.

[Neanderthaland]

Nothing. İt finished already.

If the years of my life have taught me anything, it's that nothing is ever over.

[Kandela]

The US and allies were right to target the top fifty AQ. But that did not require invasion. Without invasion it might have been easier to do what must be done now: asylum in the US and allied countries, for all women and girls.

Why not the same for Saudi Arabia and other misogynist regimes? Logical consequences are the best kind of punishment!

[Heloin]

Nothing. İt finished already.

If the years of my life have taught me anything, it's that nothing is ever over.

Didn't you hear? History is finally over, the last history textbook is being finalised and we finally reached the end. Good job everyone, you've all been a part of this.

[Ethel mermania]

If the years of my life have taught me anything, it's that nothing is ever over.

Didn't you hear? History is finally over, the last history textbook is being finalised and we finally reached the end. Good job everyone, you've all been a part of this.

Fukuyama was wrong? Say it isn't so

[Feyrisshire]

None.

Everytime someone does something in Afghanistan it doesn't go well.

[Cosmic79]

If Aghanistan isn't willing to defend itself, no amount of support will ever get rid of the taliban terrorists. There is no reason for a country to waste resources on helping a state when this state is made up of corrupt people who don't want to fight for their own country. Afghani people will have to suffer under sharia law and get abused and killed on a daily basis. Hopefully those who don't want to live under this regime will be able to escape to other countries.

Joe Biden was right when he said that the US succeded in getting Bin Laden and that this operation shouldn't be passed on to future administrations indefinitely.

If there something that can be done is supporting the Northern alliance but I doubt that it will ever get rid of the Taliban from Kabul.

[Rio Cana]

The best solution was to divide Afghanistan along ethnic lines. Or at the very least, divide Afghanistan into two parts.

[Yaruqo]

With the Taliban having taken over the country, the twin questions seem to be what should we do and what caused it.

It is my opinion that the answer to the second gives rise to the first.

When the Taliban were forced out of control 20 years ago, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the caves and mountains, organized, planned, and generally worked (with the clandestine help of outside powers) on plans to outlast the secularists to retake power.

When the secularists were forced out of power last week, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the airports and borders to ensure their safety. If the secularists really want to retake power, they need to look to the Taliban for the methods that work; running away is not one of them.

As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.

If, on the other hand, the only goal for the secular Afghan people is survival, then let them leave their people under Taliban rule. It is up to the Afghan people to decide their own fate.

Other opinions are, of course, welcomed and sought.

What should have beed done? The US and their allies should have stayed on their own countries and leave the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan alone, thats what they should have done.

Are you referring to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, which is what it was referred to when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan with an iron fist? You know, when they sheltered Al Qaeda? Or the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, which had been the name of the government the Coalition backed after the fall of the Taliban? Or perhaps you mean the Islamic State of Afghanistan, which was formed after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan?

Regarding the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, the Soviet Union was the first nation that intervened there, eventually culminating in their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Yeah, the US supported the mujaheddin, but they weren't all what would come to be the Taliban - others would eventually form the Northern Alliance in opposition to the Taliban (which was supported by Pakistan and its ISI).

[Jabberwocky]

While we shouldn't have been there at all, we really screwed up the withdrawal.

[Duvniask]

None.

Everytime someone does something in Afghanistan it doesn't go well.

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

[Kowani]

Didn't you hear? History is finally over, the last history textbook is being finalised and we finally reached the end. Good job everyone, you've all been a part of this.

Fukuyama was wrong? Say it isn't so

tbf even fukuyama himself took back his end of history idea

None.

Everytime someone does something in Afghanistan it doesn't go well.

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

we can resurrect the mongol khans and ask them how to handle it ig

[Union of Socialist Council-Republics]

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

we can resurrect the mongol khans and ask them how to handle it ig

Bring back Timur, he'll know how to deal with it.

[Page]

None.

Everytime someone does something in Afghanistan it doesn't go well.

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

Afghanistan can be understood or handled by Afghans. No foreign power can ever control it. The Afghan government installed by the US wasn't viable at any time in the last 20 years, it was a kleptocracy from the beginning. Half the reason the Afghan army refused to fight the Taliban was that they hadn't been paid for months because corruption was so pervasive it ate up the soldiers' entire salaries.

[Haganham]

While we shouldn't have been there at all, we really screwed up the withdrawal.

I don't think we did. Suppling the Taliban with names and addresses of Americans, while blocking third parties from evacuating them; that's crossed the line for me. I can no longer suspend disbelief on incompetency. I think this is being done deliberately, in an attempt to gain cause to restart the afghan war. Biden's vow to hunt down and destroy the people responsible for the airport bombing only made me more certain of this. It's exactly the sort of rhetoric we used going in the first time.

[Old Tyrannia]

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

Afghanistan can be understood or handled by Afghans. No foreign power can ever control it. The Afghan government installed by the US wasn't viable at any time in the last 20 years, it was a kleptocracy from the beginning. Half the reason the Afghan army refused to fight the Taliban was that they hadn't been paid for months because corruption was so pervasive it ate up the soldiers' entire salaries.

And yet Pakistan have proven quite capable of installing a client regime amenable to their interests in Afghanistan.

[Washington Resistance Army]

The idea that Afghanistan is uncontrollable or "the graveyard of empires" is one of the most bizarrely ahistorical ideas that has ever permeated the popular mindset. The Persians did it, the Greeks did it, various Indian realms did it, the Hepthalites did it, the Muslims did it, the Mongols did it, the British won firm victories a few times, the Soviets never particularly struggled until foreign powers got involved, the US and friends ran over the entire nation in about a week and then controlled it for 20 years and only really left because we wanted to, Pakistan has more or less assumed control of most of Afghanistan etc etc.

The failures of our campaign in Afghanistan come from an inability to properly nation build, not because le meme view of history.

[Page]

The idea that Afghanistan is uncontrollable or "the graveyard of empires" is one of the most bizarrely ahistorical ideas that has ever permeated the popular mindset. The Persians did it, the Greeks did it, various Indian realms did it, the Hepthalites did it, the Muslims did it, the Mongols did it, the British won firm victories a few times, the Soviets never particularly struggled until foreign powers got involved, the US and friends ran over the entire nation in about a week and then controlled it for 20 years and only really left because we wanted to, Pakistan has more or less assumed control of most of Afghanistan etc etc.

The failures of our campaign in Afghanistan come from an inability to properly nation build, not because le meme view of history.

The powers that were successful in their Afghanistan endeavors were successful precisely because they didn't try nation building. They sent in the army to kill some folks, then they appointed a local satrap/governor/client king and they collected taxes. Like the Mongols, they exerted force and then collected tribute, they didn't govern the country.

Nation building though, doesn't work.

[Kubra]

The idea that Afghanistan is uncontrollable or "the graveyard of empires" is one of the most bizarrely ahistorical ideas that has ever permeated the popular mindset. The Persians did it, the Greeks did it, various Indian realms did it, the Hepthalites did it, the Muslims did it, the Mongols did it, the British won firm victories a few times, the Soviets never particularly struggled until foreign powers got involved, the US and friends ran over the entire nation in about a week and then controlled it for 20 years and only really left because we wanted to, Pakistan has more or less assumed control of most of Afghanistan etc etc.

The failures of our campaign in Afghanistan come from an inability to properly nation build, not because le meme view of history.

The powers that were successful in their Afghanistan endeavors were successful precisely because they didn't try nation building. They sent in the army to kill some folks, then they appointed a local satrap/governor/client king and they collected taxes. Like the Mongols, they exerted force and then collected tribute, they didn't govern the country.

Nation building though, doesn't work.

if one cannot build nations, how can one build communism?

[The Huskar Social Union]

The powers that were successful in their Afghanistan endeavors were successful precisely because they didn't try nation building. They sent in the army to kill some folks, then they appointed a local satrap/governor/client king and they collected taxes. Like the Mongols, they exerted force and then collected tribute, they didn't govern the country.

Nation building though, doesn't work.

if one cannot build nations, how can one build communism?

Copious amounts of hammers.

[Kubra]

The idea that Afghanistan is uncontrollable or "the graveyard of empires" is one of the most bizarrely ahistorical ideas that has ever permeated the popular mindset. The Persians did it, the Greeks did it, various Indian realms did it, the Hepthalites did it, the Muslims did it, the Mongols did it, the British won firm victories a few times, the Soviets never particularly struggled until foreign powers got involved, the US and friends ran over the entire nation in about a week and then controlled it for 20 years and only really left because we wanted to, Pakistan has more or less assumed control of most of Afghanistan etc etc.

The failures of our campaign in Afghanistan come from an inability to properly nation build, not because le meme view of history.

people always give the term "Orientalism" shit but I mean Afghanistan is a real good example of the term being legit.

[New haven america]

How to subject oneself to a weird pessimistic fatalism 101.

As if Afghanistan is this wholly unknowable entity that can never be understood or handled by anyone, lol.

Afghanistan can be understood or handled by Afghans. No foreign power can ever control it. The Afghan government installed by the US wasn't viable at any time in the last 20 years, it was a kleptocracy from the beginning. Half the reason the Afghan army refused to fight the Taliban was that they hadn't been paid for months because corruption was so pervasive it ate up the soldiers' entire salaries.

Persia, Greece, Mongolia, Moghuls, India, etc... all were able to control it pretty well. Also, Pakistan just installed a puppet government there, like, last week.

[New haven america]

The idea that Afghanistan is uncontrollable or "the graveyard of empires" is one of the most bizarrely ahistorical ideas that has ever permeated the popular mindset. The Persians did it, the Greeks did it, various Indian realms did it, the Hepthalites did it, the Muslims did it, the Mongols did it, the British won firm victories a few times, the Soviets never particularly struggled until foreign powers got involved, the US and friends ran over the entire nation in about a week and then controlled it for 20 years and only really left because we wanted to, Pakistan has more or less assumed control of most of Afghanistan etc etc.

The failures of our campaign in Afghanistan come from an inability to properly nation build, not because le meme view of history.

The powers that were successful in their Afghanistan endeavors were successful precisely because they didn't try nation building. They sent in the army to kill some folks, then they appointed a local satrap/governor/client king and they collected taxes. Like the Mongols, they exerted force and then collected tribute, they didn't govern the country.

Nation building though, doesn't work.

1/2 of Europe, Korea, Japan, etc... would disagree with this conclusion.

[Kowani]

major explosion in Kabul
cause unknown