Passport restriction of the Greek Cypriot administration

[Salus Maior]

Hot take ethnic cleansing is bad if Turks do it. Even hotter take ethnic cleansing is bad if the Greeks do it.

Hottest take: ethnic Turks can still live in Greek Cyprus.

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

[Hhurria]

Hottest take: ethnic Turks can still live in Greek Cyprus.

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

Hear hear: if a country is too big to be peaceful, split it up!

[New Rogernomics]

Natural resources have more recently become the curse of Cyprus, as the Turkish side claims all the natural resources of Cyprus, which the other part of Cyprus rejects and it has similar claims of its own. Both Greece and Turkey dispute their EEZs, though Turkey is forced to comply with international treaties. At one point Erdogan threatened to leave a treaty, not understanding that if he renounced it, the last treaties before it broke up the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia*. Though, he believes in revisionist history, so it isn't exactly surprising.

But Cyprus is an EU member in its own right, so it can pursue its own border polices, and talk about making it part of Turkey or Greece entirely are a non-starter because they are in fact an independent nation.

*Which I joke about in my sig.

[Hhurria]

Natural resources have more recently become the curse of Cyprus, as the Turkish side claims all the natural resources of Cyprus, which the other part of Cyprus rejects and it has similar claims of its own. Both Greece and Turkey dispute their EEZs, though Turkey is forced to comply with international treaties. At one point Erdogan threatened to leave a treaty, not understanding that if he renounced it, the last treaties before it broke up the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia. Though, he believes in revisionist history, so it isn't exactly surprising.

But Cyprus is an EU member in its own right, so it can pursue its own border polices, and talk about making it part of Turkey or Greece entirely are a non-starter because they are in fact an independent nation.

The vast majority of nations don't recognise North-Cyprus.
The only reason South-Cyprus isn't joining Greece is that the unrecognised north threatens violence if the southerners do it anyway.

[Parxland]

I don't care.
In an ideal world it wouldn't exist but the Greek Cypriots decided they wanted it to when they voted down the Annan Plan in 2004.

It's okay, I understand your seething fury. Look on the bright side; I'm sure president erdogen will give you a new target soon, then you can make another thread about your sudden but inevitable rage at whatever it is.

EDIT: misspelled the guy's name. my bad.

[Baltenstein]

Natural resources have more recently become the curse of Cyprus, as the Turkish side claims all the natural resources of Cyprus, which the other part of Cyprus rejects and it has similar claims of its own. Both Greece and Turkey dispute their EEZs, though Turkey is forced to comply with international treaties. At one point Erdogan threatened to leave a treaty, not understanding that if he renounced it, the last treaties before it broke up the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia. Though, he believes in revisionist history, so it isn't exactly surprising.

But Cyprus is an EU member in its own right, so it can pursue its own border polices, and talk about making it part of Turkey or Greece entirely are a non-starter because they are in fact an independent nation.

The vast majority of nations don't recognise North-Cyprus.
The only reason South-Cyprus isn't joining Greece is that the unrecognised north threatens violence if the southerners do it anyway.

Actually, the vast majority of Greek Cypriots don't want to join Greece nowadways. Their country is better run, more wealthy, and they are still bitter at Greece because they remember what happened the last time people tried to implement Enosis.

[Sungoldy-China]

Ha, a pile of booger in the civil war.

[The Two Jerseys]

Hottest take: ethnic Turks can still live in Greek Cyprus.

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

Considering that after it was clear that British sovereignty wasn't going to be restored the Turkish Cypriots' next big brain idea was "Cyprus should be annexed by Turkey!" despite the fact that they're in the minority, giving them the boot might be the better option.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Free Armenia, free Cyprus, free Kurdistan.

Turkey's borders are not where they should be.

Revive Sèvres.

The Turkish Nation gave the necessary answer to people like Sultan Vahdettin and continues to do so. Political Islamists and those who want to divide Turkish lands will find social democrat kemalists against them. Political Islamists and those who want to divide Turkish lands are on the same side. our side is social democratic kemalism against them.

The vast majority of nations don't recognise North-Cyprus.
The only reason South-Cyprus isn't joining Greece is that the unrecognised north threatens violence if the southerners do it anyway.

Actually, the vast majority of Greek Cypriots don't want to join Greece nowadways. Their country is better run, more wealthy, and they are still bitter at Greece because they remember what happened the last time people tried to implement Enosis.

Likewise, Turkish Cypriots do not want to be connected to Turkey. Because the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is an independent state and they only want to live in a united Cyprus with their brothers under the roof of the European Union. Turkey and Greece should stop turning the island into a race.

[Salus Maior]

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

Considering that after it was clear that British sovereignty wasn't going to be restored the Turkish Cypriots' next big brain idea was "Cyprus should be annexed by Turkey!" despite the fact that they're in the minority, giving them the boot might be the better option.

Regular Sudetanlanders, those lot.

[Salus Maior]

The vast majority of nations don't recognise North-Cyprus.
The only reason South-Cyprus isn't joining Greece is that the unrecognised north threatens violence if the southerners do it anyway.

Actually, the vast majority of Greek Cypriots don't want to join Greece nowadways. Their country is better run, more wealthy, and they are still bitter at Greece because they remember what happened the last time people tried to implement Enosis.

Maybe Greece should become Greater Cyprus, then ;P

Also, imagine being better off than Greece even when half your country is under military occupation.

[Punished UMN]

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

Considering that after it was clear that British sovereignty wasn't going to be restored the Turkish Cypriots' next big brain idea was "Cyprus should be annexed by Turkey!" despite the fact that they're in the minority, giving them the boot might be the better option.

That's really not what happened. The Greek Cypriots had been planning integration with Greece since before independence and planned to take away the rights of the Turkish cypriots to vote in order to make that a reality. Things only really came to a head when the military coup took place and it appeared the island would descend into civil war any day. What the Turks did was illegal, but the interests they had in the island were legitimate, if an ethno-nationalist military coup by a group that has been in favor of expelling your people from a country since the 1950's seized power and began shooting their political enemies in summary executions a few dozen miles from our country, we would probably intervene in some way too.

[Punished UMN]

Hottest take: ethnic Turks can still live in Greek Cyprus.

I don't see why we have to treat Turks with such kid gloves.

I mean, they've gotten away with ethnic cleansing and genocide time and time again and we're just going to tolerate and accommodate that? Frankly, if the Greeks kicked the Turks off of Cyprus I wouldn't blame them. It's obviously dangerous to national sovereignty to have a Turkish minority in a country neighboring Turkey. It's like 1930's Germany.

"An ethnic minority is a potential threat to our national sovereignty, therefore we have to eradicate it" seems pretty much like the exact reasoning Turkey and the Ottoman Empire have used to justify their ethnic cleansing, I don't see why it's any more legitimate when Greeks want to use it to justify ethnic cleansing. The Turks have been on Cyprus since the late 1500's, you can't just get rid of them.

[Baltenstein]

Actually, the vast majority of Greek Cypriots don't want to join Greece nowadways. Their country is better run, more wealthy, and they are still bitter at Greece because they remember what happened the last time people tried to implement Enosis.

Maybe Greece should become Greater Cyprus, then ;P

Also, imagine being better off than Greece even when half your country is under military occupation.

I don't see why the latter should seem strange. Cyprus has a smaller, better manageable population and infrastructure and a more advanced services industry. It's not like they have to channel all their resources into facing off the Turkish occupation.
For another example of a country that economically performs well despite a part of it being under a, uh, unpleasant regime, look at Korea.

[Punished UMN]

It's not as though the Turks were paranoid. The Greek Cypriots had unconstitutionally forced through 13 constitutional amendments that revoked the right of Turkish Cypriots to participate in the electoral and political process and then committed ethnic massacres which the Greek Cypriot government still denies took place later that year, all more than ten years prior to the Turkish invasion. In 1966,the Greek Cypriot plan to repudiate their international treaties, achieve union with Greece, and further dissolve the rights of Turkish Cypriots on the island was leaked to the press, and immediately precipitating the invasion, there was an ethno-nationalist coup d'etat by military officers with ties to the Greek military junta, followed by massacres of political opponents and a hastily-announced plan to repudiate the international treaties governing the island and join the Greek junta. The Turks weren't imagining that the Greek Cypriots had been taking overt and direct steps to destroy the Turkish Cypriot population starting over a decade prior to their intervention, they are real, well-documented events. If you think there are many countries that would just sit back and watch their own people be massacred and displaced without lifting a finger when there is a treaty signed by Greece and Cyprus which gives them the legal right to intervene to protect Turkish Cypriots on the island, then you're dreaming.

[Baltenstein]

It's not as though the Turks were paranoid. The Greek Cypriots had unconstitutionally forced through 13 constitutional amendments that revoked the right of Turkish Cypriots to participate in the electoral and political process and then committed ethnic massacres which the Greek Cypriot government still denies took place later that year, all more than ten years prior to the Turkish invasion. In 1966,the Greek Cypriot plan to repudiate their international treaties, achieve union with Greece, and further dissolve the rights of Turkish Cypriots on the island was leaked to the press, and immediately precipitating the invasion, there was an ethno-nationalist coup d'etat by military officers with ties to the Greek military junta, followed by massacres of political opponents and a hastily-announced plan to repudiate the international treaties governing the island and join the Greek junta. The Turks weren't imagining that the Greek Cypriots had been taking overt and direct steps to destroy the Turkish Cypriot population starting over a decade prior to their intervention, they are real, well-documented events. If you think there are many countries that would just sit back and watch their own people be massacred and displaced without lifting a finger when there is a treaty signed by Greece and Cyprus which gives them the legal right to intervene to protect Turkish Cypriots on the island, then you're dreaming.

And after all that, and after the Greek Junta and the Greek Cypriot coupists had already fallen from power, they painted themselves into a corner from which they cannot escape by committing an second invasion, completely illegal this time, indulging in ethnic cleansing, propping up a pariah puppet state and bringing in settlers from a completely unrelated region, congrats.

[Punished UMN]

It's not as though the Turks were paranoid. The Greek Cypriots had unconstitutionally forced through 13 constitutional amendments that revoked the right of Turkish Cypriots to participate in the electoral and political process and then committed ethnic massacres which the Greek Cypriot government still denies took place later that year, all more than ten years prior to the Turkish invasion. In 1966,the Greek Cypriot plan to repudiate their international treaties, achieve union with Greece, and further dissolve the rights of Turkish Cypriots on the island was leaked to the press, and immediately precipitating the invasion, there was an ethno-nationalist coup d'etat by military officers with ties to the Greek military junta, followed by massacres of political opponents and a hastily-announced plan to repudiate the international treaties governing the island and join the Greek junta. The Turks weren't imagining that the Greek Cypriots had been taking overt and direct steps to destroy the Turkish Cypriot population starting over a decade prior to their intervention, they are real, well-documented events. If you think there are many countries that would just sit back and watch their own people be massacred and displaced without lifting a finger when there is a treaty signed by Greece and Cyprus which gives them the legal right to intervene to protect Turkish Cypriots on the island, then you're dreaming.

And after all that, and after the Greek Junta and the Greek Cypriot coupists had already fallen from power, they painted themselves into a corner from which they cannot escape by committing an second invasion, completely illegal this time, indulging in ethnic cleansing, propping up a pariah puppet state and bringing in settlers from a completely unrelated region, congrats.

1) It wasn't just the Junta and coupists that planned to get rid of the Turkish Cypriots, it was the democratically elected Greek Cypriot government. The coupists were just impatient and tried to implement it earlier, they were only implementing a plan already in place by the government they overthrew.
2) The massacres against the Turkish Cypriots in the south continued after the fall of the Junta and the end of the coup.
3) The population of Turkish Cypriots is smaller than it was in 1974, so settlement is overstated, though of course still illegal.

And also the post was in response to Salus' blatant call for ethnically cleansing the entire Turkish Cypriot population at the top of the page.

[Baltenstein]

And after all that, and after the Greek Junta and the Greek Cypriot coupists had already fallen from power, they painted themselves into a corner from which they cannot escape by committing an second invasion, completely illegal this time, indulging in ethnic cleansing, propping up a pariah puppet state and bringing in settlers from a completely unrelated region, congrats.

1) It wasn't just the Junta and coupists that planned to get rid of the Turkish Cypriots, it was the democratically elected Greek Cypriot government. The coupists were just impatient and tried to implement it earlier, they were only implementing a plan already in place by the government they overthrew.
2) The massacres against the Turkish Cypriots in the south continued after the fall of the Junta and the end of the coup.
3) The population of Turkish Cypriots is smaller than it was in 1974, so settlement is overstated, though of course still illegal.

And also the post was in response to Salus' blatant call for ethnically cleansing the entire Turkish Cypriot population at the top of the page.

Clearly the respond to massacres (which were two-sided btw) in the South is to ethnically cleanse the North of 80% of its population and creating a deadlock for yourself from which you will never, ever, escape.

The foundation of the Republic of Northern Cyprus was a major fuck-up on the behalf of the Turkish Republic, one to which they are unable to provide a solution due to being trapped inside their own culture of face-loss-prevention and authoritarianism.
It's not that unsimilar to the Armenian Genocide - the Turkish leadership, both past and present, knows that it occured, knows that it will continue to be a headache in their foreign affairs for them but domestic politics prevent them from admitting it.

[Punished UMN]

1) It wasn't just the Junta and coupists that planned to get rid of the Turkish Cypriots, it was the democratically elected Greek Cypriot government. The coupists were just impatient and tried to implement it earlier, they were only implementing a plan already in place by the government they overthrew.
2) The massacres against the Turkish Cypriots in the south continued after the fall of the Junta and the end of the coup.
3) The population of Turkish Cypriots is smaller than it was in 1974, so settlement is overstated, though of course still illegal.

And also the post was in response to Salus' blatant call for ethnically cleansing the entire Turkish Cypriot population at the top of the page.

Clearly the respond to massacres (which were two-sided btw) in the South is to ethnically cleanse the North of 80% of its population and creating a deadlock for yourself from which you will never, ever, escape.

The foundation of the Republic of Northern Cyprus was a major fuck-up on the behalf of the Turkish Republic, one to which they are unable to provide a solution due to being trapped inside their own culture of face-loss-prevention and authoritarianism.
It's not that unsimilar to the Armenian Genocide - the Turkish leadership, both past and present, knows that it occured, knows that it will continue to be a headache in their foreign affairs for them but domestic politics prevent them from admitting it.

So what permanent solution should they have instituted?

[Baltenstein]

Clearly the respond to massacres (which were two-sided btw) in the South is to ethnically cleanse the North of 80% of its population and creating a deadlock for yourself from which you will never, ever, escape.

The foundation of the Republic of Northern Cyprus was a major fuck-up on the behalf of the Turkish Republic, one to which they are unable to provide a solution due to being trapped inside their own culture of face-loss-prevention and authoritarianism.
It's not that unsimilar to the Armenian Genocide - the Turkish leadership, both past and present, knows that it occured, knows that it will continue to be a headache in their foreign affairs for them but domestic politics prevent them from admitting it.

So what permanent solution should they have instituted?

Peace negotiations? Like the ones that were actually going on at the time in Geneva? Undermine massacres through internationally coordinated police actions?
The fact that by then the Turkish leadership had already internally decided on violent separation and population transfer was entirely of their own volition.

[Punished UMN]

So what permanent solution should they have instituted?

Peace negotiations? Like the ones that were actually going on at the time in Geneva? Undermine massacres through internationally coordinated police actions?
The fact that by then the Turkish leadership had already internally decided on violent separation and population transfer was entirely of their own volition.

You mean like they tried to put together prior to the invasion by contacting the British foreign office?

[Baltenstein]

Peace negotiations? Like the ones that were actually going on at the time in Geneva? Undermine massacres through internationally coordinated police actions?
The fact that by then the Turkish leadership had already internally decided on violent separation and population transfer was entirely of their own volition.

You mean like they tried to put together prior to the invasion by contacting the British foreign office?

Yes, and? Britain rejects a singular proposal in the middle of crucial negotiations - clearly illegal invasion and ethnic cleansing is the only way. We have tried everything else, man! Everything!
What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? That Turkey was somehow forced, by other players, into committing this quagmire (I am exclusively referring to Attila II, mind you) they have found themselves in?

[Punished UMN]

You mean like they tried to put together prior to the invasion by contacting the British foreign office?

Yes, and? Britain rejects a singular proposal in the middle of crucial negotiations - clearly illegal invasion and ethnic cleansing is the only way. We have tried everything else, man! Everything!
What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? That Turkey was somehow forced, by other players, into committing this quagmire (I am exclusively referring to Attila II, mind you) they have found themselves in?

The negotiations weren't stopping the violence and the British were unwilling to help with peacekeeping.

[Roegerland]

The Turkish nationalist is angry that the legitimate government of the country that Turkey illegally invaded and set up a puppet government within isn't kowtowing to the want and desires of said puppet government.

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Yeah pretty much this.

[Baltenstein]

Yes, and? Britain rejects a singular proposal in the middle of crucial negotiations - clearly illegal invasion and ethnic cleansing is the only way. We have tried everything else, man! Everything!
What exactly is the point you are trying to make here? That Turkey was somehow forced, by other players, into committing this quagmire (I am exclusively referring to Attila II, mind you) they have found themselves in?

The negotiations weren't stopping the violence and the British were unwilling to help with peacekeeping.

I like how you keep drawing a connection between the objective of "violence in the South" to "violent conquest and ethnic cleansing of the North" to make the latter seem more legitimate, as if it were in any way a feasible solution to the former. Not only did Attila II make anti-Turkish violence in the South much worse as was completely predictable, it also resulted in pretty much eradicating the ethnic Turkish presence in the South (also, completely predictable)

Even a unilateral police action, with the sole puprpose of pacifying inter-community violence, would have been an infinitely better solution than what the Turkish leadership chose to do.

You keep portraying a Turkish leadership that had, by that point, already decided on on violent population transfer (and therefore much more violence against both Greeks and Turks in both parts of the island) and acted in complete accordance with that objective as somehow being driven by wanting to end the violence.