Spanish Invasion of Incan Empire

[Heloin]

Considering themselves something and having genetic descent are two different things.

A notable amount of Japanese consider themselves Ainu despite the modern Ainu population only being around 25,000.

The literal exact opposite of that, a tiny amount of people consider themselves to be Ainu, that 25,000. The likely real amount is about 200,000.

[Infected Mushroom]

I think this scenario ought to include a decisive face-off at Machu Picchu. Some kind of a pitched battle where both Pizarro and Atahualpa would fight and duel in the very middle of clashing armies. And tons of reinforcements would arrive from both sides. It should start to rain heavily too so it gets really muddy and messed up as all the soldiers hack and shoot at each other en masse.

Three points. One, the Spanish never found Machu Picchu. Two, I'm unsure that what you think the importance of Machu Picchu is but it's not like an Inca capital or even a city of notable size, it was a small citadel in the mountains. And three, what the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe they could find it in this scenario. And it could be the place for a big historic battle.

Are there other potential spots where big battles could be fought?

[Neanderthaland]

Three points. One, the Spanish never found Machu Picchu. Two, I'm unsure that what you think the importance of Machu Picchu is but it's not like an Inca capital or even a city of notable size, it was a small citadel in the mountains. And three, what the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe they could find it in this scenario. And it could be the place for a big historic battle.

Are there other potential spots where big battles could be fought?

Plenty, but there can't be big battles. Pizarro had 180 conquistadors.

It would be impossible for Spain to field big armies in Peru for logistical reasons. Without smallpox and local allies, the Spanish would have had no hope of doing anything. The Inca could have wiped them out by herding alpaca at them.

[HISPIDA]

A notable amount of Japanese consider themselves Ainu despite the modern Ainu population only being around 25,000.

The literal exact opposite of that, a tiny amount of people consider themselves to be Ainu, that 25,000. The likely real amount is about 200,000.

Oy vey! I've been lied to! Lied, I tell you!

[Heloin]

Three points. One, the Spanish never found Machu Picchu. Two, I'm unsure that what you think the importance of Machu Picchu is but it's not like an Inca capital or even a city of notable size, it was a small citadel in the mountains. And three, what the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe they could find it in this scenario. And it could be the place for a big historic battle.

It's a narrow mountain ridge that was likely more akin to a royal winter palace.

Are there other potential spots where big battles could be fought?

Cusco, an actual city of 45,000 before Europeans arrived in the Americas. Most anywhere else in Peru. And since the Inca haven't been devastated by smallpox and other European diseases they would so vastly outnumber the Spaniards that no such mighty battle would ever take place.

The reality of this thread is that what would happen is a small group of Spanish adventures would be slaughtered. And that's assuming that Spain would have been even able to conquer the Aztecs without the significant help provided by old world diseases.

[Heloin]

Maybe they could find it in this scenario. And it could be the place for a big historic battle.

Are there other potential spots where big battles could be fought?

Plenty, but there can't be big battles. Pizarro had 180 conquistadors.

It would be impossible for Spain to field big armies in Peru for logistical reasons. Without smallpox and local allies, the Spanish would have had no hope of doing anything. The Inca could have wiped them out by herding alpaca at them.

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

[Neanderthaland]

Plenty, but there can't be big battles. Pizarro had 180 conquistadors.

It would be impossible for Spain to field big armies in Peru for logistical reasons. Without smallpox and local allies, the Spanish would have had no hope of doing anything. The Inca could have wiped them out by herding alpaca at them.

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

I'm imagining the Spanish trying to climb up a narrow mountain path at high altitude. Really out of breath. Struggling with their heavy steel breastplates, helmets, and guns. And just being utterly thwarted in their efforts by a steady stream of angsty, spitting fuzzballs walking the other way.

[Ethel mermania]

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

I'm imagining the Spanish trying to climb up a narrow mountain path at high altitude. Really out of breath. Struggling with their heavy steel breastplates, helmets, and guns. And just being utterly thwarted in their efforts by a steady stream of angsty, spitting fuzzballs walking the other way.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1gZ0x8AVaBI

[Wallenburg]

Only 25% of Peruvians consider themselves indigenous.

Considering themselves something and having genetic descent are two different things.

Having one great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparent who the colonial government considered indigenous doesn't make you indigenous.

[Infected Mushroom]

Historically, how good of a fighter would the Sapa Inca himself be? Are they versed in 1 vs 1 combat?

[Vikanias]

Historically, how good of a fighter would the Sapa Inca himself be? Are they versed in 1 vs 1 combat?

Saps Inca were the commander of the entire Incan army, so some skill would be needed. If it was in Cusco Pizarro would get his ass kicked.

[Flohaland]

Historically, how good of a fighter would the Sapa Inca himself be? Are they versed in 1 vs 1 combat?

Saps Inca were the commander of the entire Incan army, so some skill would be needed. If it was in Cusco Pizarro would get his ass kicked.

That doesn't necessarily make sense. Often commanders are not very good one on one fighters. Or do you mean the altitude would make the difference.

Historically, how good of a fighter would the Sapa Inca himself be? Are they versed in 1 vs 1 combat?

Short answer is that we have no idea. We could speculate based on age, average size of Incas compared to Spaniards. Etc. It probably comes down to equipment. I am not sure what weapons they would have used, but the Spanish steel weapons were superior. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be an upset, just that the Inca would be the underdog.

Assuming the duel is just with swords and both wear some kind of armor. If they used identical equipment, the person most familiar with the equipment would have advantage. If they used each their own equipment, then Pizarro has advantage. Pizarro was probably also a little bigger, his sword a bit longer and his armor significantly better.

[Baltenstein]

When I visited Cuzco, I had to sit down and have a breather every 15 minutes or so. Some of our group actually fainted. And we weren't prancing around in battle armor carrying heavy hand weapons either.

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

I'm imagining the Spanish trying to climb up a narrow mountain path at high altitude. Really out of breath. Struggling with their heavy steel breastplates, helmets, and guns. And just being utterly thwarted in their efforts by a steady stream of angsty, spitting fuzzballs walking the other way.

Are Alpacas that ill-tempered? I thought llamas were the nasty ones.

[Vana Ptang]

When I visited Cuzco, I had to sit down and have a breather every 15 minutes or so. Some of our group actually fainted. And we weren't prancing around in battle armor carrying heavy hand weapons either.



Are Alpacas that ill-tempered? I thought llamas were the nasty ones.

The altitude should not be dismissed, but it is possible for the Spanish to adjust. I know someone who likes to hike to the tops of peaks, and there is usually a couple of days training and acclimating.


You are right about the llamas, I visited an Alpaca farm where they had a guard Lama instead of a dog. The Lamas probably provide an advantage as they are suited to mountains, not as mounts but as draft animals. In fact, Lamas are the only pre Columbian draft animals in the New World.

[Bears Armed]

Matchlocks weren't actually that good in the new world, they were devastating when they fire but because they had a slow reload and needed cover of crossbowmen. Moreover crossbows and even guns can be acquired by the Inca - taken from dead Spanish soldiers or stolen from Spanish camps - so in a scenario where the natives aren't weakened by foreign plagues its quite possible that the Inca would eventually acquire metal weapons too.

Although, of course, capturing a few examples of weapons doesn't teach you how to make more of those if your relevant technology currently lags significantly behind that of those weapons' former owners... and the Inca domains, while rich in many other metals, didn't contain any reasonably useable deposits of Iron ore anyway.

[The Republic of Fore]

The Spanish still win. They still capture the Inca emperor and trigger a civil war.

[Vikanias]

Saps Inca were the commander of the entire Incan army, so some skill would be needed. If it was in Cusco Pizarro would get his ass kicked.

That doesn't necessarily make sense. Often commanders are not very good one on one fighters. Or do you mean the altitude would make the difference.

Historically, how good of a fighter would the Sapa Inca himself be? Are they versed in 1 vs 1 combat?

Short answer is that we have no idea. We could speculate based on age, average size of Incas compared to Spaniards. Etc. It probably comes down to equipment. I am not sure what weapons they would have used, but the Spanish steel weapons were superior. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be an upset, just that the Inca would be the underdog.

Assuming the duel is just with swords and both wear some kind of armor. If they used identical equipment, the person most familiar with the equipment would have advantage. If they used each their own equipment, then Pizarro has advantage. Pizarro was probably also a little bigger, his sword a bit longer and his armor significantly better.

Altitude and the long ass journey up to Cusco

[Bears Armed]

I wouldn’t rule out the Inca getting a temporary treaty with the Spaniards where missionaries do their business but the Inca keep their autonomy.

Bearing in mind the 'god-king' status claimed by the Inca rulers, and their use of this as a focus for their subjects' loyalty? I don't see how they would or could have permitted Christian missionary activity without realizing that it alone posed too great a threat to their authority.

[Old Tyrannia]

I think Arch's post on the first page covers just about everything, but for what it's worth, I don't see any way that a stable, unified and non-disease-ridden Incan Empire could be conquered by Pizarro's relatively small contingent of Conquistadores. Whilst in the long term it is unlikely that a native South American state could escape European colonialism, at least in the short term Spain was in no position to be launching a full-scale military invasion of the empire given the logistical challenges associated with doing so and the fact that Spain was already involved in extensive conflicts in Europe at the time. I find it unlikely that Charles V would have prioritised the conquest of a far-away native state over his ongoing struggles with France and the Ottoman Empire, even if there was some practical possibility of actually doing so.

[Flohaland]

I wouldn’t rule out the Inca getting a temporary treaty with the Spaniards where missionaries do their business but the Inca keep their autonomy.

Bearing in mind the 'god-king' status claimed by the Inca rulers, and their use of this as a focus for their subjects' loyalty? I don't see how they would or could have permitted Christian missionary activity without realizing that it alone posed too great a threat to their authority.

I think that the Inca rulers might not be familiar with Catholicism enough to realize that they would preach against every aspect of their religion. However, such an arrangement is unlikely to last long if made. An outcome other than complete conquest or complete defeat for the Spanish, is worth considering.

[Ifreann]

I think this scenario ought to include a decisive face-off at Machu Picchu. Some kind of a pitched battle where both Pizarro and Atahualpa would fight and duel in the very middle of clashing armies. And tons of reinforcements would arrive from both sides. It should start to rain heavily too so it gets really muddy and messed up as all the soldiers hack and shoot at each other en masse.

Three points. One, the Spanish never found Machu Picchu. Two, I'm unsure that what you think the importance of Machu Picchu is but it's not like an Inca capital or even a city of notable size, it was a small citadel in the mountains. And three, what the fuck are you talking about?

The final cutscene of the game.

[Heloin]

Three points. One, the Spanish never found Machu Picchu. Two, I'm unsure that what you think the importance of Machu Picchu is but it's not like an Inca capital or even a city of notable size, it was a small citadel in the mountains. And three, what the fuck are you talking about?

The final cutscene of the game.

And I can only assume like Skyrim the ending is three npcs half heartedly cheering my praise.

[The Archregimancy]

I think this scenario ought to include a decisive face-off at Machu Picchu. Some kind of a pitched battle where both Pizarro and Atahualpa would fight and duel in the very middle of clashing armies. And tons of reinforcements would arrive from both sides. It should start to rain heavily too so it gets really muddy and messed up as all the soldiers hack and shoot at each other en masse.

You have some ... odd ... views on what 'ought' to happen.

But you surely mean Vilcabamba rather than Machu Picchu; the latter's significance is exaggerated by its purely modern iconic status derived from the mistaken belief that it was some sort of 'lost city'.

[Ethel mermania]

I think this scenario ought to include a decisive face-off at Machu Picchu. Some kind of a pitched battle where both Pizarro and Atahualpa would fight and duel in the very middle of clashing armies. And tons of reinforcements would arrive from both sides. It should start to rain heavily too so it gets really muddy and messed up as all the soldiers hack and shoot at each other en masse.

You have some ... odd ... views on what 'ought' to happen.

But you surely mean Vilcabamba rather than Machu Picchu; the latter's significance is exaggerated by its purely modern iconic status derived from the mistaken belief marketing angle that it was some sort of 'lost city'.

Fixed that for you, 500,000 or so tourists a year can't be wrong

[The Archregimancy]

You have some ... odd ... views on what 'ought' to happen.

But you surely mean Vilcabamba rather than Machu Picchu; the latter's significance is exaggerated by its purely modern iconic status derived from the mistaken belief marketing angle that it was some sort of 'lost city'.

Fixed that for you, 500,000 or so tourists a year can't be wrong

I'd correct you in turn, but I'm too busy saving this crystal skull thingy from those pesky Soviets.


Don't believe what they tell you about fridges and nuclear testing, incidentally.