Spanish Invasion of Incan Empire

[Cetacea]

Considering themselves something and having genetic descent are two different things.

A notable amount of Japanese consider themselves Ainu despite the modern Ainu population only being around 25,000.

60% of Peruvians are Mestizo

But chauvinism is weird - the Peruvian Mestizo deny being indigenous due to Spanish acculturation whereas Japanese honour the Ainu heritage as some mythic origin tale.

[Deacarsia]

I think that the Spanish still would have won.

[Ethel mermania]

Fixed that for you, 500,000 or so tourists a year can't be wrong

I'd correct you in turn, but I'm too busy saving this crystal skull thingy from those pesky Soviets.


Don't believe what they tell you about fridges and nuclear testing, incidentally.

Oh God no, not Shia Lebouf, I surrender.

[Dakini]

A notable amount of Japanese consider themselves Ainu despite the modern Ainu population only being around 25,000.

60% of Peruvians are Mestizo

But chauvinism is weird - the Peruvian Mestizo deny being indigenous due to Spanish acculturation whereas Japanese honour the Ainu heritage as some mythic origin tale.

No, a lot of Ainu people deny being Ainu because they are not historically honoured and were instead expected to assimilate. They only gained legal recognition in 2008.

There's a reason that the official count is 25k Ainu people in Japan but estimates put the number at closer to 200k.

[Infected Mushroom]

I think that the Spanish still would have won.

Because of the cannons?

[Infected Mushroom]

Plenty, but there can't be big battles. Pizarro had 180 conquistadors.

It would be impossible for Spain to field big armies in Peru for logistical reasons. Without smallpox and local allies, the Spanish would have had no hope of doing anything. The Inca could have wiped them out by herding alpaca at them.

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

How much?

[The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan]

Peru could've been just a primitive kingdom till maybe 17th or 18th century.

[The Archregimancy]

I should have mentioned this earlier (my fault for focusing on the initial conquest rather than consider the details of Manco Inca's subsequent resistance to the Spanish), but there is good evidence that the Inca could have launched an effective military resistance to the Spanish had it not been for the catastrophic impact of smallpox and the civil war.

In January 1537, Manco Inca led an army of c.30,000+ Inca to victory over an army of c.100 Spaniards and c.30,000+ Native American auxiliaries led by Hernando Pizarro at the Battle of Ollantaytambo - itself part of a broader campaign where Manco Inca's armies held their own against the conquistadors and allies for some months, leading to a military stalemate.

Following his uprising against Spanish rule, Manco Inca had clearly grasped that Spanish armour and cavalry presented a formidable challenge to traditional Inca military tactics. So he made brilliant use of the local terrain at Ollantaytambo to hold a strong defensive position that gave him a significant tactical advantage, and also flooded the plain to hinder the Spanish cavalry.

When he counterattacked, his army made good use of captured Spanish weapons; Manco Inca himself had apparently learned to ride a horse by this point. Hernando had no choice but to retreat with heavy losses - though the Inca were unable to take advantage of their victory and re-take Cuzco.

So take away the devastating impact of smallpox, the chaos of the civil war, and the political and military turmoil that resulted from both, and there's good reason to believe that properly led Inca armies under the overall command of Huayna Capac at the peak of his power and prestige could have made effective use of a topography that they were far more familiar with than the Spanish to wipe Pizarro out without too much difficulty, though likely with some initial losses before they came to grips with metal armour and horses.

[Infected Mushroom]

In January 1537, Manco Inca led an army of c.30,000+ Inca to victory over an army of c.100 Spaniards and c.30,000+ Native American auxiliaries led by Hernando Pizarro at the Battle of Ollantaytambo - itself part of a broader campaign where Manco Inca's armies held their own against the conquistadors and allies for some months, leading to a military stalemate.

Following his uprising against Spanish rule, Manco Inca had clearly grasped that Spanish armour and cavalry presented a formidable challenge to traditional Inca military tactics. So he made brilliant use of the local terrain at Ollantaytambo to hold a strong defensive position that gave him a significant tactical advantage, and also flooded the plain to hinder the Spanish cavalry.

When he counterattacked, his army made good use of captured Spanish weapons; Manco Inca himself had apparently learned to ride a horse by this point. Hernando had no choice but to retreat with heavy losses - though the Inca were unable to take advantage of their victory and re-take Cuzco.

This is a really inspiring post. Even though the Incans lost, I think they really tried and really fought with honor, inventiveness and determination. I am very touched by this.

[The Archregimancy]

I think that the Spanish still would have won.

Because of the cannons?

There seems to be an ongoing misconception in this thread that gunpowder was the key Spanish technological advantage.

It wasn't.

When Pizarro arrived at Cajamarca for the crucial meeting with (and kidnapping of) Atahualpa, his force consisted of 110 infantry and 67 cavalry. Between them, they had only three arquebuses and two falconets - none of which were either particularly reliable or useful at close quarters. The cavalrymen also despised the use of both as fundamentally dishonourable.

The Spanish advantage came from A) metal armour and swords, and B) horses. While neither were invulnerable, the lack of Inca familiarity with either meant that Pizarro was able to exploit the element of surprise for his Cajamarca ambush to kidnap Atahualpa.

As per my previous post, the Inca proved under Manco Inca that they could adapt, and were subsequently able to defeat mixed Spanish-Native American armies; but by then the damage had been done. As I noted above, take away smallpox and the civil war, and there's no reason to believe that their response to Pizarro couldn't have adapted more quickly and effectively.

[Baltenstein]

A notable amount of Japanese consider themselves Ainu despite the modern Ainu population only being around 25,000.

60% of Peruvians are Mestizo

But chauvinism is weird - the Peruvian Mestizo deny being indigenous due to Spanish acculturation whereas Japanese honour the Ainu heritage as some mythic origin tale.

Then you have Etnocacerismo, and ideology that rejects all things (and people) of Spanish/European background in favor of some pre-columbian mythic origin tale.

This is their flag.

The design and color composition seem eerily familiar though I can't quite put my finger on what they remind me of.

[The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan]

Peruvians must renounce Spanish customs.

[The Blaatschapen]

60% of Peruvians are Mestizo

But chauvinism is weird - the Peruvian Mestizo deny being indigenous due to Spanish acculturation whereas Japanese honour the Ainu heritage as some mythic origin tale.

Then you have Etnocacerismo, and ideology that rejects all things (and people) of Spanish/European background in favor of some pre-columbian mythic origin tale.

This is their flag.

The design and color composition seem eerily familiar though I can't quite put my finger on what they remind me of.

It's the inverse of the Japanese flag, but then with a symbol added in the middle.

[Flohaland]

Then you have Etnocacerismo, and ideology that rejects all things (and people) of Spanish/European background in favor of some pre-columbian mythic origin tale.

This is their flag.

The design and color composition seem eerily familiar though I can't quite put my finger on what they remind me of.

It's the inverse of the Japanese flag, but then with a symbol added in the middle.

Yes, but there is another flag that is even more similar... It even has symbol in the middle.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's the inverse of the Japanese flag, but then with a symbol added in the middle.

Yes, but there is another flag that is even more similar... It even has symbol in the middle.

Yeah, it's the Galactic Empire.

[Heloin]

Now that's a battle I'd pay to see.

How much?

Like 3.50.

[The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan]

Keiko Fujimori wouldn't have been able to contest the Peru elections had Spain not invaded Peru.

[Wallenburg]

This is a really inspiring post. Even though the Incans lost, I think they really tried and really fought with honor, inventiveness and determination. I am very touched by this.

Honor has nothing to do with it. When an invader arrives and enslaves whomever they do not exterminate, you'll fight however you can with whatever you can.

[Infected Mushroom]

This is a really inspiring post. Even though the Incans lost, I think they really tried and really fought with honor, inventiveness and determination. I am very touched by this.

Honor has nothing to do with it. When an invader arrives and enslaves whomever they do not exterminate, you'll fight however you can with whatever you can.

And fight they did. I’m very proud of the Incans and their efforts to resist. They have my undying respect. This is in part why I made this thread. To discuss this counterfactual.

[Heloin]

Honor has nothing to do with it. When an invader arrives and enslaves whomever they do not exterminate, you'll fight however you can with whatever you can.

And fight they did. I’m very proud of the Incans and their efforts to resist. They have my undying respect. This is in part why I made this thread. To discuss this counterfactual.

I’m sure they’d much rather have their country.

[Infected Mushroom]

And fight they did. I’m very proud of the Incans and their efforts to resist. They have my undying respect. This is in part why I made this thread. To discuss this counterfactual.

I’m sure they’d much rather have their country.

They fought with such valor and nobility. Even after Atahualpa went down, they didn’t just give up. They continued to fight back.

It’s such a compelling and poignant moment in history. I think there should be more depictions of this from the Incan POV.

[Infected Mushroom]

Keiko Fujimori wouldn't have been able to contest the Peru elections had Spain not invaded Peru.

How so?

That’s the Japanese-Peruvian leader right?

[Tsaivao]

I’m sure they’d much rather have their country.

They fought with such valor and nobility. Even after Atahualpa went down, they didn’t just give up. They continued to fight back.

It’s such a compelling and poignant moment in history. I think there should be more depictions of this from the Incan POV.

Please tell me Im not the only one who sees this as ignorant and condescending. Why are you talking about the Inca like they're a Warhammer 40k faction? It's not poignant and compelling, it's a genocide that very nearly succeeded thanks to disease and war. Why must we be so fixated on honor when "honor" has nothing to do with this at all?

[Infected Mushroom]

They fought with such valor and nobility. Even after Atahualpa went down, they didn’t just give up. They continued to fight back.

It’s such a compelling and poignant moment in history. I think there should be more depictions of this from the Incan POV.

Please tell me Im not the only one who sees this as ignorant and condescending. Why are you talking about the Inca like they're a Warhammer 40k faction? It's not poignant and compelling, it's a genocide that very nearly succeeded thanks to disease and war. Why must we be so fixated on honor when "honor" has nothing to do with this at all?

I support the Incans. When I read the books on this topic, I feel sympathy for the Incan side.

I don’t know how it comes across as otherwise.

[Tsaivao]

Please tell me Im not the only one who sees this as ignorant and condescending. Why are you talking about the Inca like they're a Warhammer 40k faction? It's not poignant and compelling, it's a genocide that very nearly succeeded thanks to disease and war. Why must we be so fixated on honor when "honor" has nothing to do with this at all?

I support the Incans. When I read the books on this topic, I feel sympathy for the Incan side.

I don’t know how it comes across as otherwise.

There 's a huge difference between expressing sympathy and going on and on about "honor" and "nobility". The Incans weren't fighting for honor, they weren't engaged in noble conquest in this war, they were trying to survive. Going on about their "honorable" sacrifice de-empathizes them; they didnt want the majority of their people to die by disease nor become part of the casualties and have their culture erased by foreign conquerors.

You claiming this over-idealized "noble sacrifice" is what many people condemn war for. War is terrible, and I'm sure you mean well, but that kind of thinking is how wars like this have happened in the first place, and it doesn't feel right.