Breaking News Protests across Cuba against the Cuban Regime

[A priori]

I said that we have problems with excessive force. That does not disprove anything I said.

Yeah, but I'm not even sure it's accurate to say that the crackdowns last year in the US are less than what is happening in Cuba, Russia, Hong Kong, or other countries which have to worry about public opinion. While you occasionally get things as violent as the Tiananmen Square incident in some dictatorships, this represents more a state of exception in national security than ordinary operating procedure towards protests or even riots, and we see similar things take place even in Western democracies like France (e.g. the Paris Commune) historically when protest movements have threatened the sovereignty of the state.

The Cuban dictatorship is pretty mild compared to a lot of them and tbh I haven't seen that much evidence of violence that is out of the ordinary there.

Another not insignificant difference is that the people involved in the protests don't get thrown in jail and harrassed afterwards.

[Genivaria]

I said that we have problems with excessive force. That does not disprove anything I said.

Yeah, but I'm not even sure it's accurate to say that the crackdowns last year in the US are less than what is happening in Cuba, Russia, Hong Kong, or other countries which have to worry about public opinion. While you occasionally get things as violent as the Tiananmen Square incident in some dictatorships, this represents more a state of exception in national security than ordinary operating procedure towards protests or even riots, and we see similar things take place even in Western democracies like France (e.g. the Paris Commune) historically when protest movements have threatened the sovereignty of the state.

The Cuban dictatorship is pretty mild compared to a lot of them and tbh I haven't seen that much evidence of violence that is out of the ordinary there.

Yes liberal democracies are more than willing to bloody their hands on their own people when the status quo is threatened, the state violence on the American people in the last few years should be eye-opening.

[A priori]

Yeah, but I'm not even sure it's accurate to say that the crackdowns last year in the US are less than what is happening in Cuba, Russia, Hong Kong, or other countries which have to worry about public opinion. While you occasionally get things as violent as the Tiananmen Square incident in some dictatorships, this represents more a state of exception in national security than ordinary operating procedure towards protests or even riots, and we see similar things take place even in Western democracies like France (e.g. the Paris Commune) historically when protest movements have threatened the sovereignty of the state.

The Cuban dictatorship is pretty mild compared to a lot of them and tbh I haven't seen that much evidence of violence that is out of the ordinary there.

Yes liberal democracies are more than willing to bloody their hands on their own people when the status quo is threatened, the state violence on the American people in the last few years should be eye-opening.

Really now?

[The Reformed American Republic]

Yes liberal democracies are more than willing to bloody their hands on their own people when the status quo is threatened, the state violence on the American people in the last few years should be eye-opening.

Really now?

It was state violence. That being said, I disagree with their claim that we're on par with Cuba.

[Genivaria]

Yes liberal democracies are more than willing to bloody their hands on their own people when the status quo is threatened, the state violence on the American people in the last few years should be eye-opening.

Really now?

Are you not an American? Serious question because the wave of reporting on police violence over the last 2 years is hard to miss.

[Punished UMN]

Really now?

It was state violence. That being said, I disagree with their claim that we're on par with Cuba.

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

[Genivaria]

It was state violence. That being said, I disagree with their claim that we're on par with Cuba.

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

In fairness the lack of press freedom may have something to do with that.
The ability of people to record police goes a long way to reporting in the US, despite politicians trying to criminalize it.

[Punished UMN]

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

In fairness the lack of press freedom may have something to do with that.
The ability of people to record police goes a long way to reporting in the US, despite politicians trying to criminalize it.

Naturally, but if it were really so pervasive, we'd have some evidence of it. We know about Uyghur concentration camps after all.

[The Reformed American Republic]

It was state violence. That being said, I disagree with their claim that we're on par with Cuba.

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

I don't think their media can as easily report on it. You won't have a mainstream network like CNN as openly covering the violence there as we do here.

[The Reformed American Republic]

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

In fairness the lack of press freedom may have something to do with that.
The ability of people to record police goes a long way to reporting in the US, despite politicians trying to criminalize it.

We have flaws here, but the first amendment does have some teeth, as opposed to having no teeth like the constitutions of ML states.

[Punished UMN]

So how much violence does the Cuban government actually engage in against its citizens? I'm not really able to find that much evidence of mass political violence there.

I don't think their media can as easily report on it. You won't have a mainstream network like CNN as openly covering the violence there as we do here.

I mean yes, but I can't find evidence of really any sort. We have evidence of North Korean atrocities, even though they're actually a much more closed off country than Cuba, so why not for Cuba?

[The Reformed American Republic]

I don't think their media can as easily report on it. You won't have a mainstream network like CNN as openly covering the violence there as we do here.

I mean yes, but I can't find evidence of really any sort. We have evidence of North Korean atrocities, even though they're actually a much more closed off country than Cuba, so why not for Cuba?

North Korea is much worse than Cuba and always makes noise. They earn more attention.

[Genivaria]

In fairness the lack of press freedom may have something to do with that.
The ability of people to record police goes a long way to reporting in the US, despite politicians trying to criminalize it.

Naturally, but if it were really so pervasive, we'd have some evidence of it. We know about Uyghur concentration camps after all.

Fair. Even authoritarian regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia still have video evidence from people's mobile devices about violence there.
Unless all of Cuba lacks any network coverage which I doubt.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Naturally, but if it were really so pervasive, we'd have some evidence of it. We know about Uyghur concentration camps after all.

Fair. Even authoritarian regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia still have video evidence from people's mobile devices about violence there.
Unless all of Cuba lacks any network coverage which I doubt.

It has networks, though I think they're expensive. Look, there are accounts of repression and all the NGOs condemn Cuba for dissent repression, and I don't think that's just propaganda, especially when they can and do condemn the U.S..

They also cut their internet in time for these protests: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 81053.html

Also, NK's violations are much worse, and probably are more likely to be covered and stick in one's head. Saudi Arabia also is importiant because our relationship with them shows our hypocrisy. Dissent and violence in Cuba however isn't as politically important.

[Proctopeo]

"Cuba's dictatorship is one thing but what about Orange Man????"

It's all so tiresome. What do you have to say about the violence against anti-government protesters in Cuba?

Sorry if it triggers you that America does more crackdowns on anti-government protestors than the evil dictatorship.

I doubt that's true. But more to the point, you need to stop letting Trump live rent-free in your head. Dude's rich, at least make him pay rent. And get new material; you've been saying "triggered" in an attempt to mock(?) people who themselves were mocking other people for years, and in that time, both groups moved on to new terminology.

Fair. Even authoritarian regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia still have video evidence from people's mobile devices about violence there.
Unless all of Cuba lacks any network coverage which I doubt.

It has networks, though I think they're expensive. Look, there are accounts of repression and all the NGOs condemn Cuba for dissent repression, and I don't think that's just propaganda, especially when they can and do condemn the U.S..

They also cut their internet in time for these protests: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 81053.html

Also, NK's violations are much worse, and probably are more likely to be covered and stick in one's head. Saudi Arabia also is importiant because our relationship with them shows our hypocrisy. Dissent and violence in Cuba however isn't as politically important.

Yeah. Cuba's rather poor and hardly relevant, and they shut down their internet and phone lines during the protests. Figuring out the true scope of anything that happened is going to be mostly guesswork.

In fairness the lack of press freedom may have something to do with that.
The ability of people to record police goes a long way to reporting in the US, despite politicians trying to criminalize it.

We have flaws here, but the first amendment does have some teeth, as opposed to having no teeth like the constitutions of ML states.

or Europeans

[Punished UMN]

Fair. Even authoritarian regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia still have video evidence from people's mobile devices about violence there.
Unless all of Cuba lacks any network coverage which I doubt.

It has networks, though I think they're expensive. Look, there are accounts of repression and all the NGOs condemn Cuba for dissent repression, and I don't think that's just propaganda, especially when they can and do condemn the U.S..

They also cut their internet in time for these protests: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 81053.html

Also, NK's violations are much worse, and probably are more likely to be covered and stick in one's head. Saudi Arabia also is importiant because our relationship with them shows our hypocrisy. Dissent and violence in Cuba however isn't as politically important.

Even NGO estimates for political violence from the government aren't particularly extraordinary, and that aside, the argument here is that, because we aren't able to collect evidence of pervasive political violence, that must mean that it's there, so it's an assertion, without data or even circumstantial evidence, of mass violence against protestors by the Cuban government in excess of what is normal in other states.

[Punished UMN]

Sorry if it triggers you that America does more crackdowns on anti-government protestors than the evil dictatorship.

I doubt that's true. But more to the point, you need to stop letting Trump live rent-free in your head. Dude's rich, at least make him pay rent. And get new material; you've been saying "triggered" in an attempt to mock(?) people who themselves were mocking other people for years, and in that time, both groups moved on to new terminology.

It has networks, though I think they're expensive. Look, there are accounts of repression and all the NGOs condemn Cuba for dissent repression, and I don't think that's just propaganda, especially when they can and do condemn the U.S..

They also cut their internet in time for these protests: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 81053.html

Also, NK's violations are much worse, and probably are more likely to be covered and stick in one's head. Saudi Arabia also is importiant because our relationship with them shows our hypocrisy. Dissent and violence in Cuba however isn't as politically important.

Yeah. Cuba's rather poor and hardly relevant, and they shut down their internet and phone lines during the protests. Figuring out the true scope of anything that happened is going to be mostly guesswork.

Cuba has millions of tourists visit annually, the idea that they could hide pervasive political violence by turning off their internet when Ethiopia can't hide it in a region that they have totally cut off from the outside world via military blockade, destruction of infrastructure, etc. (Tigray) makes no sense.

[The Reformed American Republic]

It has networks, though I think they're expensive. Look, there are accounts of repression and all the NGOs condemn Cuba for dissent repression, and I don't think that's just propaganda, especially when they can and do condemn the U.S..

They also cut their internet in time for these protests: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 81053.html

Also, NK's violations are much worse, and probably are more likely to be covered and stick in one's head. Saudi Arabia also is importiant because our relationship with them shows our hypocrisy. Dissent and violence in Cuba however isn't as politically important.

Even NGO estimates for political violence from the government aren't particularly extraordinary, and that aside, the argument here is that, because we aren't able to collect evidence of pervasive political violence, that must mean that it's there, so it's an assertion, without data or even circumstantial evidence, of mass violence against protestors by the Cuban government in excess of what is normal in other states.

Normal in "other states." is not a clear standard. There are other states on par with NK when it comes to human rights violations. You compared it to the U.S. which is a country that does not need to take down the entire internet when there are protests or even riots, even when the internet can put our police in a bad light. That seems to suggest we're not as bad as them, which was the original claim. Are BLM websites taken offline or blocked en masse? No, they're not.

[Punished UMN]

Even NGO estimates for political violence from the government aren't particularly extraordinary, and that aside, the argument here is that, because we aren't able to collect evidence of pervasive political violence, that must mean that it's there, so it's an assertion, without data or even circumstantial evidence, of mass violence against protestors by the Cuban government in excess of what is normal in other states.

Normal in "other states." is not a clear standard. There are other states on par with NK when it comes to human rights violations. You compared it to the U.S. which is a country that does not need to take down the entire internet when there are protests or even riots, even when the internet can put our police in a bad light. That seems to suggest we're not as bad as them, which was the original claim. Are BLM websites taken offline or blocked en masse? No, they're not.

I mean even in comparison with Western democracies. The fact of the matter is just that there is not sufficient evidence to determine how violent the Cuban government is against political dissidents, but frankly prior existing data actually indicates that it's not a particularly violent dictatorship, probably more similar (though more lenient in terms of the death penalty, which is not used in Cuba) to the USSR during the Khrushchev Thaw than something like China during the Tiananmen crisis. One thing that has to be realized is that most dictatorships actually only use extreme violence as a last resort, for the same reason democracies do the same, it can increase tensions and make the overall protests worse (as happened in the fall of the USSR). The violence in the US during the protests last year would have been worse if the US hadn't spent hundreds of millions of dollars equipping police forces with weaponry specifically for the purpose of inflicting pain and injuries on protestors without killing them for the reason that shooting protesters is a lot worse publicity than cracking their skills with rubber bullets, which is another factor. Violence may not be more pervasive in dictatorships, but it may be more awe-inspiring in terms of the way that violence is applied. Is shooting a protestor and killing them more violent than cracking their skull with a club? Not really, but the "Protestor shot and killed" headline will produce a lot more shock than "1 injured in protest."

[Greater Miami Shores]

Normal in "other states." is not a clear standard. There are other states on par with NK when it comes to human rights violations. You compared it to the U.S. which is a country that does not need to take down the entire internet when there are protests or even riots, even when the internet can put our police in a bad light. That seems to suggest we're not as bad as them, which was the original claim. Are BLM websites taken offline or blocked en masse? No, they're not.

I mean even in comparison with Western democracies. The fact of the matter is just that there is not sufficient evidence to determine how violent the Cuban government is against political dissidents, but frankly prior existing data actually indicates that it's not a particularly violent dictatorship, probably more similar (though more lenient in terms of the death penalty, which is not used in Cuba) to the USSR during the Khrushchev Thaw than something like China during the Tiananmen crisis. One thing that has to be realized is that most dictatorships actually only use extreme violence as a last resort, for the same reason democracies do the same, it can increase tensions and make the overall protests worse (as happened in the fall of the USSR). The violence in the US during the protests last year would have been worse if the US hadn't spent hundreds of millions of dollars equipping police forces with weaponry specifically for the purpose of inflicting pain and injuries on protestors without killing them for the reason that shooting protesters is a lot worse publicity than cracking their skills with rubber bullets, which is another factor. Violence may not be more pervasive in dictatorships, but it may be more awe-inspiring in terms of the way that violence is applied. Is shooting a protestor and killing them more violent than cracking their skull with a club? Not really, but the "Protestor shot and killed" headline will produce a lot more shock than "1 injured in protest."

My Little Girl was beaten up by the eternal Revolution. Libertad Libertad Libertad Cubans shout to the world. Cubans are unarmed by the oppressive eternal revolution of over 61 Years and counting. How nice they are not oppressive enough, for leaders of the Democratic nations of the world and people of the world to care.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vi ... ORM=VDRVSR

[Genivaria]

I mean even in comparison with Western democracies. The fact of the matter is just that there is not sufficient evidence to determine how violent the Cuban government is against political dissidents, but frankly prior existing data actually indicates that it's not a particularly violent dictatorship, probably more similar (though more lenient in terms of the death penalty, which is not used in Cuba) to the USSR during the Khrushchev Thaw than something like China during the Tiananmen crisis. One thing that has to be realized is that most dictatorships actually only use extreme violence as a last resort, for the same reason democracies do the same, it can increase tensions and make the overall protests worse (as happened in the fall of the USSR). The violence in the US during the protests last year would have been worse if the US hadn't spent hundreds of millions of dollars equipping police forces with weaponry specifically for the purpose of inflicting pain and injuries on protestors without killing them for the reason that shooting protesters is a lot worse publicity than cracking their skills with rubber bullets, which is another factor. Violence may not be more pervasive in dictatorships, but it may be more awe-inspiring in terms of the way that violence is applied. Is shooting a protestor and killing them more violent than cracking their skull with a club? Not really, but the "Protestor shot and killed" headline will produce a lot more shock than "1 injured in protest."

My Little Girl was beaten up by the eternal Revolution. Libertad Libertad Libertad Cubans shout to the world. Cubans are unarmed by the oppressive eternal revolution of over 61 Years and counting. How nice they are not oppressive enough, for leaders of the Democratic nations of the world and people of the world to care.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=vi ... ORM=VDRVSR

Are you sure you don't mean My Little Pony? I mean while we're in fantasy land.

[Kowani]

Gotta break out those sanctions

[Fahran]

I mean yes, but I can't find evidence of really any sort. We have evidence of North Korean atrocities, even though they're actually a much more closed off country than Cuba, so why not for Cuba?

There are wide-ranging accounts of ongoing police brutality in Cuba. People have allegedly been shot by police. We lack reliable statistics, but, judging by the scale of the demonstrations and the fact that we're dealing with what is effectively a dictatorship, it's no bueno. The government has instigated a crackdown on internet access and dissident journalists, which has done quite a lot to repress opposition and muddle access to statistical information. I think it's a fair assumption to suppose that the Cuban police, acting with even less accountability and less negative press coverage than American police, are likely a lot more gung-ho about the suppression of dissent and brutality in response to criminality - such as opposing the Communist Party.

As for my opinion on Cuba generally, the Party's mismanagement of the country has brought it to this point. Cuba isn't exactly a pleasant place to live at the best of times, much less amid a pandemic and an economic crisis. A collapse would be a humanitarian disaster, but will eventually become inevitable without substantive liberalizing and anti-corruption reforms. The US shouldn't intervene militarily, needless to say. Let things play out. It's not our business, and our involvement would probably make things worse since the American public hasn't been willing to commit to a long-term foreign policy decision since Korea.

[Punished UMN]

I mean yes, but I can't find evidence of really any sort. We have evidence of North Korean atrocities, even though they're actually a much more closed off country than Cuba, so why not for Cuba?

There are wide-ranging accounts of ongoing police brutality in Cuba. People have allegedly been shot by police. We lack reliable statistics, but, judging by the scale of the demonstrations and the fact that we're dealing with what is effectively a dictatorship, it's no bueno. The government has instigated a crackdown on internet access and dissident journalists, which has done quite a lot to repress opposition and muddle access to statistical information. I think it's a fair assumption to suppose that the Cuban police, acting with even less accountability and less negative press coverage than American police, are likely a lot more gung-ho about the suppression of dissent and brutality in response to criminality - such as opposing the Communist Party.

As for my opinion on Cuba generally, the Party's mismanagement of the country has brought it to this point. Cuba isn't exactly a pleasant place to live at the best of times, much less amid a pandemic and an economic crisis. A collapse would be a humanitarian disaster, but will eventually become inevitable without substantive liberalizing and anti-corruption reforms. The US shouldn't intervene militarily, needless to say. Let things play out. It's not our business, and our involvement would probably make things worse since the American public hasn't been willing to commit to a long-term foreign policy decision since Korea.

Part of the issue is that thus far, there has not been any incentive to liberalize. The Party has been considering liberalizing, but they know that liberalizing without assurances from the United States that they won't be taken advantage of economically and politically would be disastrous, as it was for the Soviet Union. Even Trump knew that was the case, he said as much (in reference to China and the Soviet Union) in an interview decades ago and it remains probably the most intelligent thing he has said. The moves the party has made imply they would like to liberalize, but when they have tried, they haven't had anything to show for it politically or diplomatically.

[Fahran]

Part of the issue is that thus far, there has not been any incentive to liberalize. The Party has been considering liberalizing, but they know that liberalizing without assurances from the United States that they won't be taken advantage of economically and politically would be disastrous, as it was for the Soviet Union.

Perhaps, but Cuba's presently running the risk of tumbling into liberalization in a manner that more closely resembles the USSR than China or Vietnam. They're going to have to adopt one or the other approach eventually. Gorbachev, to a significant extent, found himself playing with fire by no serious fault of his own, having to grapple with the systemic corruption and mismanagement of the USSR that predated him by decades. Cuba's situation might prove even less fortuitous given it's not a super power and doesn't have access to the same resources that Russia had access to even in the middle of the Soviet collapse.

Even Trump knew that was the case, he said as much (in reference to China and the Soviet Union) in an interview decades ago and it remains probably the most intelligent thing he has said. The moves the party has made imply they would like to liberalize, but when they have tried, they haven't had anything to show for it politically or diplomatically.

I doubt they can expect to get out of this brouhaha without suffering some blowback and damage. It's more a matter of ripping off the band-aid in the least damaging way possible at this point given Cuba doesn't have the enviable situation of China or Vietnam to emulate. Really, a liberal Cuban economy is going to look a lot like Costa Rica, Panama, or the Bahamas if I had to guess. But a functioning tourist trap is probably preferable to a failed state. Best case scenario, we get a quasi-banana republic that miraculously conserves that healthcare.