Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:14 amIt's the distinct lack of a belief in a higher power, though, something which is kinda core to the idea of religion.
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:14 amPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:26 amPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:27 amThere are religions though that exist,without a belief in a higher power. Daoism is the first thing that comes to mind although I migh be a bit mistaken on the matter.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:34 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Hispida wrote:It's the distinct lack of a belief in a higher power, though, something which is kinda core to the idea of religion.
There are religions though that exist,without a belief in a higher power. Daoism is the first thing that comes to mind although I migh be a bit mistaken on the matter.
I don't think Taoism is a religion as much as it is a philosophy, although I might be wrong on that one, too. I dunno.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:36 amHispida wrote:Laka Strolistandiler wrote:There are religions though that exist,without a belief in a higher power. Daoism is the first thing that comes to mind although I migh be a bit mistaken on the matter.
I don't think Taoism is a religion as much as it is a philosophy, although I might be wrong on that one, too. I dunno.
I was talking about Dao the religion. Sorry, my vocabulary is somewhat limited
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:43 amIt has been said in the media for years that while secularism is the fastest growing religious category in terms of "conversion" (not the best word for become irreligious but I don't know what word to use instead), the religion overall will grow because religious people are procreating at a much faster rate.
However, I dispute this because one, there is no such thing as a Christian infant, there is no such thing as a Muslim 5 year old, a child cannot be counted as being part of a religion until they are old enough to understand it, which in my opinion is definitely not before adolescence, and the other thing to keep in mind is that even when the kids become teens, the religious statistics are inflated by in-the-closet apostate minors of which there are many. Moreover, I believe forces of secularization are very strong, especially in the West but even in Muslim theocracies, we are starting to see open atheism for the first time even at risk of imprisonment or death. I definitely think the children of all the refugees who settled in Europe will mostly grow up irreligious or at least moderate.
Buuuuut the problem as far as Muslims go is that if they keep being victimized by right-wing reactionary bigots and the force of law, they will withdraw and become more insular, and then far fewer kids will secularize. That's what Islamophobic people don't understand, that their bigotry perpetuates extremism, that the best way to get kids to give up their religion is make them feel like they belong and treat them like you would anyone else.
However, I dispute this because one, there is no such thing as a Christian infant, there is no such thing as a Muslim 5 year old, a child cannot be counted as being part of a religion until they are old enough to understand it, which in my opinion is definitely not before adolescence, and the other thing to keep in mind is that even when the kids become teens, the religious statistics are inflated by in-the-closet apostate minors of which there are many. Moreover, I believe forces of secularization are very strong, especially in the West but even in Muslim theocracies, we are starting to see open atheism for the first time even at risk of imprisonment or death. I definitely think the children of all the refugees who settled in Europe will mostly grow up irreligious or at least moderate.
Buuuuut the problem as far as Muslims go is that if they keep being victimized by right-wing reactionary bigots and the force of law, they will withdraw and become more insular, and then far fewer kids will secularize. That's what Islamophobic people don't understand, that their bigotry perpetuates extremism, that the best way to get kids to give up their religion is make them feel like they belong and treat them like you would anyone else.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:44 amAtheism doesn't require faith in the absence of God. Atheists generally just don't believe in the existence of deities, which is rather different from believing that deities don't exist.
Atheism is as much a religion as not knitting is a hobby.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:47 amExcept that atheists do not have faith in no god, at least most of them don't rather, they simply do not believe because you all have failed to provide convincing evidence that one does exist.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:50 amPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:54 amPersonally my belief in God is not based on wether or not his existence can be proven. My personal position on the matter is based in an extremely hard to translate Russian sentence «Нельзя доказать бытие Бога, но доказывать это можно и даже необходимо.»
Basically it means that one can’t ultimately prove wether or not God exists, however proving that he does indeed exist is necessary.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:55 amPartially yes because I do believe that there is no horse in my bathroom. If you’d like to call “belief in the absence of horse” a religion than go for it- after all who said that people can have only 1 religion?
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:56 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Neutraligon wrote:Except that atheists do not have faith in no god, at least most of them don't rather, they simply do not believe because you all have failed to provide convincing evidence that one does exist.
Personally my belief in God is not based on wether or not his existence can be proven. My personal position on the matter is based in an extremely hard to translate Russian sentence «Нельзя доказать бытие Бога, но доказывать это можно и даже необходимо.»
Basically it means that one can’t ultimately prove wether or not God exists, however proving that he does indeed exist is necessary.
I did not say that god's existence can be proven, rather that those who believe have yet to provide convincing evidence that it does exist, and so atheists continue to not believe. No faith is necessary.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:57 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Page wrote:
Do you think there is a horse in your bathroom right now? If no, do you consider your belief in the horse's absence to be faith?
Partially yes because I do believe that there is no horse in my bathroom. If you’d like to call “belief in the absence of horse” a religion than go for it- after all who said that people can have only 1 religion?
My point is that it's absurd to call your assumption that there is no horse in your bathroom to be faith. That waters down the definition of faith so much that faith would just be your best guess about any possibility. And if that's the case then it could hardly be a virtue for religious folks.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:58 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Page wrote:
Do you think there is a horse in your bathroom right now? If no, do you consider your belief in the horse's absence to be faith?
Partially yes because I do believe that there is no horse in my bathroom. If you’d like to call “belief in the absence of horse” a religion than go for it- after all who said that people can have only 1 religion?
Your definition of religion here is so broad as to be meaningless.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:59 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Neutraligon wrote:Except that atheists do not have faith in no god, at least most of them don't rather, they simply do not believe because you all have failed to provide convincing evidence that one does exist.
Personally my belief in God is not based on wether or not his existence can be proven. My personal position on the matter is based in an extremely hard to translate Russian sentence «Нельзя доказать бытие Бога, но доказывать это можно и даже необходимо.»
Basically it means that one can’t ultimately prove wether or not God exists, however proving that he does indeed exist is necessary.
That seems like going in circles, if proving is necessary, then why is it impossible? And if it is impossible then why is it necessary, if a God created the universe, why wouldn't they leave a way for people to know that they exist, if knowing that is somehow necessary. If something is impossible to prove, then as logic dictates, it most likely doesn't exist, I mean, there are no teapots orbiting the sun.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:59 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:... after all who said that people can have only 1 religion?
Wasn't that in the commandments?
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:59 amPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:00 amNeutraligon wrote:Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Personally my belief in God is not based on wether or not his existence can be proven. My personal position on the matter is based in an extremely hard to translate Russian sentence «Нельзя доказать бытие Бога, но доказывать это можно и даже необходимо.»
Basically it means that one can’t ultimately prove wether or not God exists, however proving that he does indeed exist is necessary.
I did not say that god's existence can be proven, rather that those who believe have yet to provide convincing evidence that it does exist, and so atheists continue to not believe. No faith is necessary.
I believe that further discussion on the matter requires that you define what you exactly mean by “faith” because, I believe, our opinions on the matter somewhat differ.
What I meant to say is that proving or denying the existence of God with empiric measures is impossible, at very least from my point of view…
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:02 amI didn’t said that I agree that I believe in the existence of horse is a religion. Again, I suppose that I’ve mistranslated what I wanted to say from Russian.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:03 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Neutraligon wrote:
I did not say that god's existence can be proven, rather that those who believe have yet to provide convincing evidence that it does exist, and so atheists continue to not believe. No faith is necessary.
I believe that further discussion on the matter requires that you define what you exactly mean by “faith” because, I believe, our opinions on the matter somewhat differ.
What I meant to say is that proving or denying the existence of God with empiric measures is impossible, at very least from my point of view…
Not believing in a deity is not the same as believing in the non-existence of a deity.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:05 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Neutraligon wrote:
I did not say that god's existence can be proven, rather that those who believe have yet to provide convincing evidence that it does exist, and so atheists continue to not believe. No faith is necessary.
I believe that further discussion on the matter requires that you define what you exactly mean by “faith” because, I believe, our opinions on the matter somewhat differ.
What I meant to say is that proving or denying the existence of God with empiric measures is impossible, at very least from my point of view…
faith-belief without, or in contradiction to, evidence.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:06 amEndem wrote:Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Personally my belief in God is not based on wether or not his existence can be proven. My personal position on the matter is based in an extremely hard to translate Russian sentence «Нельзя доказать бытие Бога, но доказывать это можно и даже необходимо.»
Basically it means that one can’t ultimately prove wether or not God exists, however proving that he does indeed exist is necessary.
That seems like going in circles, if proving is necessary, then why is it impossible? And if it is impossible then why is it necessary, if a God created the universe, why wouldn't they leave a way for people to know that they exist, if knowing that is somehow necessary. If something is impossible to prove, then as logic dictates, it most likely doesn't exist, I mean, there are no teapots orbiting the sun.
Once again I’ll quote a well known cleric, saying “Пути Господни неисповедимы”- we can’t understand the ways of God. That’s why he didn’t leave an hint for us that he exists.
Well then do you believe that you are not a brain in a jar? After all, according to the brain in a jar theory this can’t be either proven right or wrong. The same is true for my religious beliefs.
And I also believe in them just because that’s comfortable for me. Without religion my life would’ve been much much worse, most likely wouldn’t exist at all, TBH. But yet again I digress.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:07 amNeutraligon wrote:Laka Strolistandiler wrote:I believe that further discussion on the matter requires that you define what you exactly mean by “faith” because, I believe, our opinions on the matter somewhat differ.
What I meant to say is that proving or denying the existence of God with empiric measures is impossible, at very least from my point of view…
faith-belief without, or in contradiction to, evidence.
Thanks.
This clears things up a bit because IMO faith is a general belief in the existence of something, ignoring the evidence part.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:08 am-Ocelot- wrote:Vikanias wrote:I mean, I don’t think so, ever since the late 80’s and maybe late 70’s religion has decreased. It’s simply not needed in modern secular society. And since mass debt. We literally killing ourselves and our planet. Multiple economic disasters in 2 decades, and much more has made people loose faith overall.
No it hasn't? Globally, religion never stop growing. For every European guy turning to atheism, there's like 10 asian guys converting to Christianity. Not to mention Africa, S.America etc.
Atheism is a niche belief and will remain a niche belief in the future. For better or for worse.
Yet I’m not Athiest… I am a Protestant my dear sir. Although I’m not very religious and very believe the scientists, I still think that there is some Holy being out there, also, I’d like some sources for your claims buckaroo.
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:09 amLaka Strolistandiler wrote:Endem wrote:That seems like going in circles, if proving is necessary, then why is it impossible? And if it is impossible then why is it necessary, if a God created the universe, why wouldn't they leave a way for people to know that they exist, if knowing that is somehow necessary. If something is impossible to prove, then as logic dictates, it most likely doesn't exist, I mean, there are no teapots orbiting the sun.
Once again I’ll quote a well known cleric, saying “Пути Господни неисповедимы”- we can’t understand the ways of God. That’s why he didn’t leave an hint for us that he exists.
Well then do you believe that you are not a brain in a jar? After all, according to the brain in a jar theory this can’t be either proven right or wrong. The same is true for my religious beliefs.
And I also believe in them just because that’s comfortable for me. Without religion my life would’ve been much much worse, most likely wouldn’t exist at all, TBH. But yet again I digress.
If there is no evidence that god existed then there is no reason to think one does exist. I do not know if I am a brain in a jar, however, since all my senses tell me I am not a brain I have no choice but to live as if I am not a brain in a jar.