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What does NS think of John Locke?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Have you heard of John Locke before?

Yes. I know his philosophy well
5
16%
Yes. I know the general outline of his philosophy
12
39%
Yes. I don't know much about him
8
26%
No. I have never heard of John Locke
6
19%
 
Total votes : 31

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-Ra-
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What does NS think of John Locke?

Postby -Ra- » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:35 pm

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John Locke is arguably the most important philosopher of the second millennium. His work profoundly influenced Western philosophy, as well as related fields like psychology, politics, and international relations. Known popularly as the "Father of Liberalism", Locke is famous for articulating the core principles of democratic thought. Our understanding of rights, freedom, social toleration, separation of powers, and limited government owes a great deal to Locke's work. It's time this luminary got more attention.

John Locke was largely ignored during his life. His legacy begins with the American Revolution. The colonies, disaffected by British rule, quoted Locke often and internalised his timeless exaltation of constitutional government and consent of the governed. Thomas Jefferson relied heavily on John Locke when drafting the Declaration of Independence. In France, Locke deeply influenced many of the philosophes, most notably Voltaire, whose ideas fomented the French Revolution.

If I had to choose a favourite historical figure, or a person who has inspired me the most, I would choose Locke. His contributions to political philosophy form the basis of constitutional democracy and liberal theory. No person has contributed more to the core principles that underline democratic governance than Locke. What a legacy.

But what do you think, NS? How well do you know John Locke? Have you read any of his works? Do you appreciate his understanding of government and human nature? Do you believe Locke is still relevant today?




Locke's contributions lie primarily in two fields: epistemology and political philosophy. Let's briefly explore both.


Epistemology of John Locke
Let us then suppose the mind to be, as we say, white paper, void of all characters, without any ideas:- How comes it to be furnished? Whence comes it by that vast store which the busy and boundless fancy of man has painted on it with an almost endless variety? Whence has it all the materials of reason and knowledge? To this I answer, in one word, from EXPERIENCE. - Book II, Chapter 1 An Essay Concerning Human Understanding


Locke was an empiricist. He believed that all human knowledge originated from experience, a theory he developed in his masterpiece An Essay Concerning Human Understanding. Locke dismantled the Cartesian notion that some ideas were already implanted in man's mind, ideas that Descartes reasoned could be realised through rationalisation. Instead, Locke argued that all ideas come either from sensation, or the inputs of the body's senses, and reflection, which Locke defined as the "notice which the mind takes of its own operations." According to Locke, reflection first gives way to perception, which informs our understanding of the world around us. According to Locke, humans build complex ideas through simple ideas, which are not actively generated but instead passively grafted from experience. Locke explains: "In this faculty of repeating and joining together its ideas, the mind has great power in varying and multiplying the objects of its thoughts, infinitely beyond what sensation or reflection furnished it with."

The important takeaway here is that Locke believes that all truths are discoverable by the mind of man. Locke even posited that man could reasonably deduce the existence of God from his own experience alone. Furthermore, because all knowledge comes from our experience and not from immutable truths implanted in us, all our knowledge must therefore be falsifiable. The doctrine of falsibility would go on to be extremely influential in the sciences.

Political philosophy of John Locke
Reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions - Chapter 2, sec. 6 Second Treatise of Government


Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality." In this state of nature all mankind possessed inalienable rights—chiefly life, liberty and estates—and all were obliged to follow the law of nature, which according to Locke "willeth the peace and preservation of all mankind." Locke goes on to explain that all men were entitled to the full excercise of their liberties provided that they did not impinge on the liberties of others: "Though man in that state have an uncontrolable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it." According to Locke, all individuals living in the state of nature had the right to enforce the law of nature and protect themselves from those who would harm them. Locke explains that when someone breaks with the law of nature, he declares himself to be in a state of war with mankind, and thus any man in the state of nature is entitled to restrain him or, if need be, kill him. Locke explains: "Thus it is, that every man, in the state of nature, has a power to kill a murderer, both to deter others from doing the like injury, which no reparation can compensate."

Locke admits that the violence and lawlessness of the state of nature is sometimes distasteful, as well as the conundrum of having men be judges in their own cases. For this reason, Locke reasoned that men would come together to form a government for the protection of their rights. Locke says, "When any number of men have so consented to make one community or government, they are thereby presently incorporated, and make one body politic, wherein the majority have a right to act and conclude the rest."

Crucially, Locke notes that the body politic may only exist if it enjoys the confidence of the people whom it represents: "Governments can originally have no other rise than that before mentioned, nor polities be founded on anything but the consent of the people." He suggests that unanimous consent is ideal, but since people can never agree, majority consent will suffice. The character of the government did not really matter much to Locke; he suggested that the people could place their consent in a monarchy, an oligarchy, or a democracy, or a mixed system.

Locke distinguished between three powers: legislative, executive and federative. Executive powers describe the power of executing laws within a country, while federative powers entail waging war and foreign policy. Locke noted that the legislative was superior to both the executive and federative powers, because it enjoyed the direct confidence of the people and was the only power that could instigate laws. While the legislative is powerful, Locke placed clear limits on the exercise of its authorities. For example, Locke declares that the government cannot rule extemporaneously or by decree and must instead observe codified statues. Furthermore, he says that the legislative may not levy taxes without popular consent: "It [the legislative] may have power to make laws for the regulating of property between the subjects one amongst another, yet can never have a power to take to themselves the whole, or any part of the subjects’ property, without their own consent."

A less discussed facet of Locke's work is his just war theory as applied to nations. Locke is deeply moralistic about foreign policy, believing that violence towards another is only permitted in the name of self defence or the defence of the law of nature, and he denied conquerors the right to the spoils or the lands which they unjustly conquered. Locke suggests that the victors in a conflict, provided that they are acting in self-defence, retain despotical, or absolute, power over the aggressors, which includes the right to kill them. However, Locke maintained that this principle of despotical power did not apply to non-combatants: "I say, then, the conqueror gets no power but only over those who have actually assisted, concurred, or consented to that unjust force that is used against him."

I have tried to touch on the core principles of Locke's political philosophy. But I'm also leaving out a lot, like the religious toleration expressed in his A Letter Concerning Toleration.
Last edited by -Ra- on Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:36 pm

i know absolutely nothing about him and it will stay that way
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-Ra-
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Postby -Ra- » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:40 pm

Hispida wrote:i know absolutely nothing about him and it will stay that way

You could always read the write-up I wrote below the header lol.

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:41 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Hispida wrote:i know absolutely nothing about him and it will stay that way

You could always read the write-up I wrote below the header lol.

no :chad:

In all seriousness, John Locke doesn't interest me terribly. I recognize he made valuable contributions to the ideas of liberalism but in all honesty I don't find him terribly interesting. I'm much more interested in the ideologies of the twentieth century, especially fascism.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:42 pm

"Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality.""

Hello, based department?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
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-Ra-
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Postby -Ra- » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:44 pm

Tubsalot wrote:I think my US History teacher mentioned him once, but that is all know.

Unfortunately, he doesn't get as much saturation in the popular culture as he should, which is a shame given how important he is to civic life in both America and Britain (and beyond).

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-Ra-
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Postby -Ra- » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:49 pm

Orostan wrote:"Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality.""

Hello, based department?

While John Locke believed that the state of nature was preferable to absolute tyranny, he wasn't an anarchist in any sense. And his state of perfect equality referred to equality in social standing, not necessarily in wealth or ability.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:49 pm

Orostan wrote:"Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality.""

Hello, based department?


The original communist idealist..

Hobbes differed..

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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:51 pm

-Ra- wrote:
Orostan wrote:"Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality.""

Hello, based department?

And his state of perfect equality referred to equality in social standing, not necessarily in wealth or ability.

Equality in social standing sounds alright, but i guess it depends on what Locke meant by equality - did he mean equally distributed resources or did he mean equal opportunity to get as much of those resources as you wanted?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



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-Ra-
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Postby -Ra- » Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:55 pm

Orostan wrote:
-Ra- wrote:And his state of perfect equality referred to equality in social standing, not necessarily in wealth or ability.

Equality in social standing sounds alright, but i guess it depends on what Locke meant by equality - did he mean equally distributed resources or did he mean equal opportunity to get as much of those resources as you wanted?

John Locke's views on what exactly qualified as equality are interesting. In terms of property, Locke believed that any individual had the right to take property out of the public domain and make it his own by mixing his labour into it. This is called the homestead principle. However, Locke also argued that there had to be "enough, and as good, left in common for others". This means that you cannot provision private property in a way that actively harms another.

To summarise, I don't think Locke would have minded inequality of outcome per se so long as the losers were able to at least lead decent lives.

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Postby Cameroi » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:02 pm

i'm better at remembering philosophies then the philosophers who thunk them.

thanks for refreshing my memory.
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Postby The Hazar Amisnery » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:05 pm

The most us history I have seen is Boston in Fallout 4. All I know is that the British made colonies and then people said no and revolted against the British and kicked them out and then they said no to slavery and got rid of it and a bunch of political stuff happened and now apartment buildings collapse for no reason.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:30 pm

The Hazar Amisnery wrote:The most us history I have seen is Boston in Fallout 4. All I know is that the British made colonies and then people said no and revolted against the British and kicked them out and then they said no to slavery and got rid of it and a bunch of political stuff happened and now apartment buildings collapse for no reason.

That's... pretty succinct, actually.
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Narland
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Postby Narland » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:32 pm

One cannot understand the hows and whys of American government without Locke. He was required reading in jr. high and high school. Between him, Montesquieu, and Rousseau one can get a good grip on understanding self-government, representative government, Federalism, civic virtue, and well as recognizing despotism (bad government). As long as:
>>>the Constitution (with its Bill of Rights) is the law of the land,
>>>the Constitutions (with their Bills of Rights) are the law of the States,
>>>counties have their charters,
>>>cities have their codes, and
>>>people sign contracts,
Locke will be relevant.
Last edited by Narland on Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kubra » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:38 pm

Orostan wrote:"Locke reasoned that all original societies lived in a state of nature, or "a state of perfect equality.""

Hello, based department?
He also said slavery wasn't really all that bad.
cool ur jets, lest you end up stanning for bourgeois ideologues.
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Postby Fatimida » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:39 pm

I honestly only recognize the name because I watched a documentary on the US Constitution and what influenced it once
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Postby Narland » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:52 pm

Orostan wrote:
-Ra- wrote:And his state of perfect equality referred to equality in social standing, not necessarily in wealth or ability.

Equality in social standing sounds alright, but i guess it depends on what Locke meant by equality - did he mean equally distributed resources or did he mean equal opportunity to get as much of those resources as you wanted?

No one from the early modernity meant equality as forcing everyone to be the same or have the same. That was conformity, and forced conformity is not equality. If it was vague or arbitrary it was considered a despotism to be resisted and rectified. As soon as resources are evenly redistributed (were that even possible), human nature would disperse everything according to individual choice, and no one would any longer have conformity of things. Thus being equal in that regard was considered nonsensical without utmost despotism and intrusion, which defeats the purpose of equality (allowing everyone to be equally free to rise or fall according to their own merits).

Equality meant allowing everyone the greatest amount of freedom (without causing harm to others) to rise or fall to their own level of competence undeterred so that they may freely advance or retreat, learning from their mistakes and successes in the lawful pursuit of their own happiness. If one should run afoul of the Law (by coercing or defrauding the life, liberty and (justly gained) property of others), they would be duly tried and convicted all alike and equally with no special treatment in the equal application of the law in regards to punishment.
Last edited by Narland on Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kathol Rift
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Postby Kathol Rift » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:53 pm

I think someone should get a key and unlocke him
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:41 pm

He was my favorite character on Lost.
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-Ra-
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Postby -Ra- » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:19 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:He was my favorite character on Lost.

Fair, I guess.

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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:30 pm

I remember his name being mentioned along with a bunch of Western thinkers (such as Montesquieu, I guess?) in my Civic textbook about government. I remember he proposed something like Trias Politica where the government would be best divided into three branches. I don't know that he is the father of liberalism though.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:50 pm

He’s neither realistic nor relevant… right?

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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:07 pm

I personally don't ship it, but I won't hate on the people who do.



But in all seriousness, I'm only a little familiar with John Locke. I remember learning about him in high school history class and how he heavily influenced America's legal system. I think we also briefly covered his ideas in one of my undergrad criminal justice classes. His ideas seem interesting. I may need to read more about him.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:38 am

Hispida wrote:
-Ra- wrote:You could always read the write-up I wrote below the header lol.

no :chad:

In all seriousness, John Locke doesn't interest me terribly. I recognize he made valuable contributions to the ideas of liberalism but in all honesty I don't find him terribly interesting. I'm much more interested in the ideologies of the twentieth century, especially fascism.


Are you implying you would be sympathetic to fascism? :eyebrow:

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